outside the square

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is a link that will take you to a story about UFO's & etc.

Nothing at all to do with keris.

Or is it?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/96014

Actually i agree with you Alan. This article could have a great deal to do with keris...or not.
What i find humorous, and perhaps a bit annoying about the article is that it doesn't seem to accept the possibility for one moment that the "real" explanation for these sightings might have been an actual alien visitation.
Interestingly enough, i think it might be harder for people of faith to accept the alien visitation explanation than people of science, as in most faiths extra-terrestrial live (especial one with superior technology to us humans) would stand against many religious domgas and belief systems.

[tunggulametung]

Something that we cannot proove (so far?) that they are exist, and on the other hand we cannot prove that they are not exist, just like mystic or spirit. I guess there is a term of seeing is believing.

"there are things known and things unknown" - James Douglas Morrison

[A. G. Maisey]

I didn't post this to try to start a discussion on whether aliens and UFO's exist or not, nor to explore the philosophy of the concept that seeing is believing.

I posted it because I thought that perhaps some of us may like to give some thought to the way in which the human mind works, especially the communal human mind.

Seeing something can certainly lead to belief in something.

In about 1987 or 1988 I was in Solo when it was hit by an incredible wind storm. All over Solo and through to the south coast there was ernormous damage done by the wind, followed by torrential rain. The following morning thousands of people from outlaying districts had converged on the kraton.
After a few days, when everything had settled down I made it my business to find and speak with some of the people who had assembled at the kraton. I asked how they had known that they needed to go to the kraton. Who had told them to go? Had they seen neighbours going so they went too? Why had they gone? Was there previous experience guiding them? I was invariably told by all the people I talked with that each person had acted independently:- they just knew that they had to assemble at the kraton. They were not quite sure why they had to go, but they had to go. Nobody told them, some people that I spoke with lived in houses that were isolated from neighbours, as soon as they knew they had to go, they immediately left home and started to make their way to the kraton. They joined with others along the way, but their action to leave home and go was an individual action.
Many of the people living within and near the kraton had seen a presence that was Nyai Loro Kidul. I spoke to three of these people, and there was no doubt at all in my mind that they did see a glowing green light like a ball of green fire with a long tail that circled the outside of the kraton walls above head height. How did they know it was Nyai Loro Kidul? They just knew. Did somebody tell them it was Nyai Loro Kidul, or had they ever heard or seen something like this before? No, they just knew.

I'm not offering any explanations here. I'm not supporting any beliefs or denying any beliefs. All I'm doing is telling a story that is a part of my personal experience.

Have another look at the UFO story and separate the elements of the story from aliens, UFO's and etc, and focus on that part of the story that deals with the functioning of the human mind. Then think about that.Having thought, then apply those thoughts to what we think we might understand about keris belief.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I didn't post this to try to start a discussion on whether aliens and UFO's exist or not, nor to explore the philosophy of the concept that seeing is believing.
I posted it because I thought that perhaps some of us may like to give some thought to the way in which the human mind works, especially the communal human mind.

Alan, i think you misunderstood my response. I realize your purpose in your posting, but how the established mind-set views the phenomenon of UFO reports and their seeming need to come up with any other answer then the one where the aliens actually exist is just as telling and applicable to the discussion of how we look at the keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

Possibly.

As I said:- consideration of the workings of the human mind. That encompasses not only communal consciousness, but belief systems and the substitution of perceived logic for faith.

[tunggulametung]

As for myself, I favour the wise Tat Twam Asi teaching to (try to) understand the concept of the universe, including in keris believe; but I'm sorry I know nothing about human mind and how it works in communal field, for my simple life its too abstract to be understood
But thank you Alan, for sharing the story and thoughts

[fearn]

Hi Alan,

I appreciate the article. I've seen UFOs: it's very simple, really. They were distant moving lights in the sky. Almost certainly they were planes or satellites, possibly a meteor or two. Since I didn't have binoculars at the time, I lacked any way of determining what they were. Hence they remain UFOs (unidentified flying objects). I've also had the experience of looking up and seeing odd white birds flying high up in the sky, then looking up a few seconds later and having trouble finding them. Angels? The souls of the recently departed? Or simply seagulls or other white birds, flying high up in air that's just hazy enough to hide them? I favor the last, but since I didn't have any binoculars with me when I've seen them, so I can't say.

Thing is, I'm a working scientist, and I used to work on some very, very common microscopic soil organisms that are difficult to identify. When I was learning to work with these things, my teacher told me that one sign of a good researcher was to be honest about what could and could not be identified. In his opinion, the sign of mediocre research was that every single organism was given a scientific name. He'd rarely seen a sample where every thing could be identified, and that had made him suspicious about people who claimed otherwise, unless he knew them and their skill levels.

That said, I'd be very surprised if UFOs were aliens from another star. There are two reasons why:

1. Distance. Star Trek has really messed up our idea of how far apart stars are. Basically, if the distance from the earth to the sun was a centimeter, the nearest known star (proxima centaurii) is roughly 2.67 kilometers away. For comparison, Voyager 1 has taken 30 years to travel roughly a bit over two meters of that distance. Most of that distance is deep space, which is not empty, but full of really dangerous radiation (cosmic rays) that we can't easily shield against.

In other words, it's a long way to go, and it's a really hostile environment to live in. Doesn't mean that they didn't come here, said hypothetical aliens would have to have a very cheap form of totally unknown technology to do it. Why really cheap? Look at the things UFOs do. They cruise over areas. They mutilate cattle. They kidnap people on isolated roads in rural areas and probe them. Even if they were conducting scientific experiments, their experimental design is stupid, by our standards. Considering how little they'd learn from what they're reported to do, all I have to say is that UFO travel has to be really cheap for them to do such foolish things.

2. Biology. Life has been on Earth for over two billion years, and the Earth has had something approaching a breathable atmosphere for over 400 million years (although oxygen levels have fluctuated substantially over that time). That's a *long* time, and if aliens can travel here and live here (without getting eaten alive by our microbes), it's amazing that we have no fossils of alien cities, no alien life-forms that don't follow known DNA forms, etc. Admittedly, scientists are only starting to look for alien microorganisms in the soil, but the telling point is that, if aliens came here, they've had hundreds of millions of years to explore, settle, and take over, and yet, they've left no known trace of themselves. Considering what we'd do if we got to an alien planet (i.e. settle it, name it New Earth, build cities, raise crops, and transform the place), this is a really, really odd record.

Based on these two points, the simplest explanations for UFOs are earthbound: planes, hallucinations, mystical experiences, hoaxes, and the like.

As for spirits in a keris? We definitely haven't established that we're all talking the same thing when we use the word "spirit," or "soul," or whatever. Since we are probably discussing a mishmash of experiences and beliefs using a common and imperfect set of terms, it's amazing that we can have a reasonable discussion about it at all. It's a testament to the people on this list that we can.

F