black sea yataghan

ariel · 22nd January 2008, 01:29 AM

OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced.
The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others.
My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue.
As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual".
As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages"

BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

Oriental-Arms · 22nd January 2008, 07:34 AM

Photos attached:

ariel · 22nd January 2008, 02:21 PM

Dear Artzi,
You are a prince!

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2008, 05:16 PM

Artzi, thank you very much for posting this extremely impressive kindjhal, which indeed shows the green leather as seen on the large elliptical scabbards sometimes seen on the BSY scabbards. Please excuse the inadvertant omission of your research into these interesting weapons in my previous comments. Naturally your position on these was indeed well known on these many years before Ariels visit to Istanbul, and I was remiss in not mentioning Lee's notes on the weapon from his own visit to Istanbul.

Ariel, I appreciate your notes bringing this to my attention, as well as your very gentlemanly modesty. My compliments were meant to address more specifically your attention to the continued pursuit of resolution concerning the many questions pertaining to these mysterious swords.
I would like to thank you additionally for the explanation of how the term 'yataghan' came to be applied to these as well. Your attention to detail is very much appreciated, as I wondered the same thing that Jens had noted.

All very best regards,
Jim

22nd January 2008, 07:34 AM	#2
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Photos Photos attached:

22nd January 2008, 01:29 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced. The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others. My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue. As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual". As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages" BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

22nd January 2008, 02:21 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dear Artzi, You are a prince!

22nd January 2008, 05:16 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Artzi, thank you very much for posting this extremely impressive kindjhal, which indeed shows the green leather as seen on the large elliptical scabbards sometimes seen on the BSY scabbards. Please excuse the inadvertant omission of your research into these interesting weapons in my previous comments. Naturally your position on these was indeed well known on these many years before Ariels visit to Istanbul, and I was remiss in not mentioning Lee's notes on the weapon from his own visit to Istanbul. Ariel, I appreciate your notes bringing this to my attention, as well as your very gentlemanly modesty. My compliments were meant to address more specifically your attention to the continued pursuit of resolution concerning the many questions pertaining to these mysterious swords. I would like to thank you additionally for the explanation of how the term 'yataghan' came to be applied to these as well. Your attention to detail is very much appreciated, as I wondered the same thing that Jens had noted. All very best regards, Jim