black sea yataghan

ariel · 21st January 2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Erlikhan,
Interesting observation! I do not know the names of these people and the exact date of the photo. The photo is from a book regarding the Pontic Greek guerilla war and uprooting from Pontos during 1920s. It could be a photo from a group that was using whatever they had, or it could be an older studio photo. The description states "Greek guerillas from Trabzon area" However, it could be possible that the photo is older than the 20s, and the wealthiest and more respectfull person which sits in the middle had the means or the authority for the more modern weapon (he also has nicer knifes) and the other were standing withwhatever they had there. MAybe they were all guerillas latter and this is an earlier photo.
Recently, they were on sale on ebay other photos of Pontic Greeks which i attach below.
The first has a date 1898, and the weapons reflect the mix of that era of change! A Martini rifle together with a flintlock pistol.
The second photo shows for sure guerillas on the countryside (their names on the back of the photo) and the weapons are more modern. Nice trabzon kamas always thought!

Artzi has a new Kindjal on his site and has graciously gave me permission to reference it here. He even put a " Not for sale" sign for the duration of our discussions.
Many thanks!
OK, here it is :
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2883
This is a typical South Caucasian/North Turkish kindjal, usually attributed to Minghrelians,Gurians etc. As Eftihis shows , these kindjals were also worn by Pontian Greeks, and earlier posts ( Erlikhan?) had a picture of a Laz family displaying similar weapons.
What is so specific about them? Square pommel and relatively blunt tip.
But the interesting part for our discussion is the scabbard, ie leatherwork.
Tirri in his book noticed similarities between the leatherwork on Laz Bicagi's scabbards and Danagil knives. This was one of his main arguments in attributing the BSY not to the Black Sea area, but to North Africa.
But here we have a typical Caucasian weapon, kindjal, from a very defined area, North Turkey, with the same leatherwork. That is yet another argument in favor of ( already well established) Caucasian provenance of Laz Bicagi. Interestingly, Artzi's example has it leatherwork dyed green; exactly the color used on most Laz Bicagis ( see, for example, post by Tim on this thread and dated Oct. 12, 2005)
Once again, thanks to Artzi for his help.

CourseEight · 21st January 2008, 05:09 PM

Thanks so much for you commentary on this! I saw it on his site but was waiting for it to sell before asking about it. What with my own BS Yatagan, I am very interested in the origins of Tirri's in particular. I do have a question though. Earlier in this thread I think it is mentioned that the similarity between African leather work and that of Tirri's yatagan could be explained by Laz pirates traveling to N. Africa, and perhaps incorporating local decoration. This would also explain the relative rarity of this sort of leather work on this particular weapon type. My question is, why could this new kinjal not also be an example of this sort of cross-culturalization? I gather from your post that this leatherwork appearing on kinjal is also uncommon to see, and surely such a weapon could have travelled just as the BS yatagan.

Of course this is rather playing the devil's advocate, and begs the question: How does one actually prove that this leather work is in fact Causcasian, and not a direct influence from N. Africa? How many weapons, or must it appear on items that would not possibly have travelled?

Your continued posting of your expertise is invaluable to those of us who are far less studied, and greatly appreciated!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 07:39 PM

I agree Radleigh, Ariels expertise is indeed much appreciated, and I have often been impressed by his continued research on this transcaucasian mystery weapon. My own research on the Black Sea yataghan began about 1995 when I obtained my first example. I was extremely excited as it did appear to be an extremely rare form, and only mentioned (and illustrated) in very obscure references.Most of my research was secondary, spent in reconfirming provenance of the weapons in the early article from 1941 (Denmark) and contacting Gerhard Seifert, the author of the 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" who surprisingly told me that the information from his book on these 'Kurdish/Armenian yataghans' as he captioned it, was obtained from the author of the 1941 article.
Through the years, more examples surfaced, and by the time I encountered Tony Tirri in Baltimore (just prior to publication of his book) I was pretty much astounded by the fact that he based his theory of North African origin on these by a single example, which did indeed reflect compelling similarities to African weapons.

There is a long and interesting trail of posts and threads on these fascinating weapons, which has been even more fascinating to me as added to my own research of years prior to these forum references and Tirri's book. I think Ariel did indeed prove conclusively the origins of the BSY, which was extremely exciting for me when my own conclusions were validated.

It is not often that a mysterious ethnographic edged weapon with such a vaguely represented past has its ancestry so plausibly revealed, especially given the intense diffusion of these weapons in times of diaspora and geopolitical flux. It is times like these and with these kind of results that I am reminded of why we all band together in our serious study of these weapons to resolve errors often found in published material, and properly preserve the true history of these weapons.

Thanks again Ariel for the tenacity and continued research supporting the findings on these fascinating weapons!

All very best regards,
Jim

CourseEight · 21st January 2008, 08:02 PM

Hi Jim! Thanks for your response. I don;t want to misrepresent what I'm asking here. I think based only on what's on the forum it is clear that, as a form, the BS yatagan is a Caucasian weapon. I'm more interested specifically in Tirri's one example, and why it (and mine, and this kindjal) have such decoration as to think they are N. African. I guess my question is whether it is more likely that this mode of decoration developed indeppendently as a rare form of decoration in the Causcuses, or whether it developed because of N. African influence, or whether these weapons originated in the Caucuses and were decorated in N. Africa.

By no means am I suggesting Ariel's (or your) attribution as to the origin of this weapon as a type is incorrect. I'm just trying to determine if there is a real reasaon for the orginal source of the confusion.

Thanks for all you do here as well, to be sure!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 09:30 PM

Hi Radleigh,
I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations.

I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence.
Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 21st January 2008, 10:02 PM

Gentlemen,

I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan?

The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2008, 10:32 PM

Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade.

As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least!

It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel.

All best regards,
Jim

21st January 2008, 05:09 PM	#2
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much for you commentary on this! I saw it on his site but was waiting for it to sell before asking about it. What with my own BS Yatagan, I am very interested in the origins of Tirri's in particular. I do have a question though. Earlier in this thread I think it is mentioned that the similarity between African leather work and that of Tirri's yatagan could be explained by Laz pirates traveling to N. Africa, and perhaps incorporating local decoration. This would also explain the relative rarity of this sort of leather work on this particular weapon type. My question is, why could this new kinjal not also be an example of this sort of cross-culturalization? I gather from your post that this leatherwork appearing on kinjal is also uncommon to see, and surely such a weapon could have travelled just as the BS yatagan. Of course this is rather playing the devil's advocate, and begs the question: How does one actually prove that this leather work is in fact Causcasian, and not a direct influence from N. Africa? How many weapons, or must it appear on items that would not possibly have travelled? Your continued posting of your expertise is invaluable to those of us who are far less studied, and greatly appreciated! --Radleigh

21st January 2008, 07:39 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	I agree Radleigh, Ariels expertise is indeed much appreciated, and I have often been impressed by his continued research on this transcaucasian mystery weapon. My own research on the Black Sea yataghan began about 1995 when I obtained my first example. I was extremely excited as it did appear to be an extremely rare form, and only mentioned (and illustrated) in very obscure references.Most of my research was secondary, spent in reconfirming provenance of the weapons in the early article from 1941 (Denmark) and contacting Gerhard Seifert, the author of the 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" who surprisingly told me that the information from his book on these 'Kurdish/Armenian yataghans' as he captioned it, was obtained from the author of the 1941 article. Through the years, more examples surfaced, and by the time I encountered Tony Tirri in Baltimore (just prior to publication of his book) I was pretty much astounded by the fact that he based his theory of North African origin on these by a single example, which did indeed reflect compelling similarities to African weapons. There is a long and interesting trail of posts and threads on these fascinating weapons, which has been even more fascinating to me as added to my own research of years prior to these forum references and Tirri's book. I think Ariel did indeed prove conclusively the origins of the BSY, which was extremely exciting for me when my own conclusions were validated. It is not often that a mysterious ethnographic edged weapon with such a vaguely represented past has its ancestry so plausibly revealed, especially given the intense diffusion of these weapons in times of diaspora and geopolitical flux. It is times like these and with these kind of results that I am reminded of why we all band together in our serious study of these weapons to resolve errors often found in published material, and properly preserve the true history of these weapons. Thanks again Ariel for the tenacity and continued research supporting the findings on these fascinating weapons! All very best regards, Jim

21st January 2008, 08:02 PM	#4
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi Jim! Thanks for your response. I don;t want to misrepresent what I'm asking here. I think based only on what's on the forum it is clear that, as a form, the BS yatagan is a Caucasian weapon. I'm more interested specifically in Tirri's one example, and why it (and mine, and this kindjal) have such decoration as to think they are N. African. I guess my question is whether it is more likely that this mode of decoration developed indeppendently as a rare form of decoration in the Causcuses, or whether it developed because of N. African influence, or whether these weapons originated in the Caucuses and were decorated in N. Africa. By no means am I suggesting Ariel's (or your) attribution as to the origin of this weapon as a type is incorrect. I'm just trying to determine if there is a real reasaon for the orginal source of the confusion. Thanks for all you do here as well, to be sure! --Radleigh

21st January 2008, 09:30 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Hi Radleigh, I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations. I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence. Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions. All the best, Jim

21st January 2008, 10:02 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Gentlemen, I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan? The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

21st January 2008, 10:32 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade. As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least! It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel. All best regards, Jim