Origin of the keris

A. G. Maisey · 10th January 2008, 08:12 PM

Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

Marcokeris · 11th January 2008, 11:24 AM

Thanks a lot Alan for your answer.
Also I have many unsolved doubts

I showed the first hilt to an art-tribal's seller in Milan and he said "probalby original" but, of course, for me is not enought.
But in Kerobokan (Bali) i saw years ago another similar hilt (jointed to a litlle piece of rusty corroded iron) in a shop very famous for his reliability in tribal art dealer world (I woul like to know if, in the same condition, iron and bronze are the same corrosion or a different corrosion's speed)
I found the second hilt in a home outside Yogya. The seller had a lot of nice old wood and ivory Cirebon, Tegal, Madura hits... and together the unclean bronze second hilt under discussion: his prize was the same of a honest ivory hilt (but... of course ... in all world the prize changes according to the numbers of successions an object has).
A strange matter that probably is not good for an old aged confirm is that the hilts are enourmously alike.
Thanks again and sorry for my english
Marco

A. G. Maisey · 11th January 2008, 08:49 PM

Nothing wrong with your English, Marco---damn sight better than my Italian.

Anyway--- ferric material corrodes much more quickly than brass or bronze. Most of the genuine old excavated bronzes that I have seen have been fairly thin and light, and mostly seem to be filled with a clay-like substance, rather than jabung or damar. The smooth parts of the material are very smooth and have nice even, dark patina.Old bronzes in general have a very refined, "gentle" feel to them---something that is difficult for me to put into words--- its almost as if when hold the object you can feel the age.This handle of yours just looks too heavy and unrefined. I could be 100% wrong, I'm no expert on bronzes, but to my eye it just doesn't look like genuine stuff I have seen and handled. If the price approximated ivory, that was probably not high enough. I have seen quite small , genuine bronzes change hands within the trade, in Jawa, for very impressive money.Something else too:- can you still see the lines of the cast and has the surface been well finished after casting? If you can still see the joints and there has been minimum finishing it is certain to be modern.Have you tested the material? Brass or bronze? If brass it is modern.

After more than 40 years of buying things in Indonesia, I no longer take a great deal of notice of the "supporting evidence" when I buy. Anybody dealing on even the lowest commercial level knows what they can get for their goods, and the way something is presented --- for instance, with adhering deposits, or stubs of corroded iron--- is just so much window dressing.

Marcokeris · 14th January 2008, 01:03 PM

In this picture the two hits are near . Excluding the base they are pratically two of a kind

.
The beauty, harmony are on the contrary great

Raden Usman Djogja · 14th January 2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

Pak Alan,

I think KLATEN is a town in Melby whilst CLAYTON is a town between Prambanan and Delanggu.

warm salam,
OeS

Raden Usman Djogja · 14th January 2008, 01:40 PM

Pak Alan,

Sorry for sending a poor joke. Yes, all like bronze period statues you can order or purchase in a small village near Klaten: CEPER. You will get "real and genuine" statues from bronze period. Why? When you ask its genuinity, CEPER VILLAGERS will say "IN MY VILLAGE, now, IS STILL IN BRONZE AGE"

Just show Yvest Laurent bag to Tanggul Anginers OR Keris Kanjeng Kiai Smith to Aengtongtongers OR bronze/steel statue to Ceperers, you will realize that Indonesian can make everything... even nuclear if permitted and there is someone orders it

warm salam,
OeS

A. G. Maisey · 14th January 2008, 08:59 PM

OK Pak Oesman---I thought you were on arak there for a minute.

Yeah, I've seen the Ceper stuff. My memory of it is that it is not as finely finished (read:- as cleverly deceitful) as the pieces I've seen from East Jawa. I was told exactly where these were being made, but I've forgotten.

I actually have a relative who owns some factories in Bandung one of which produces very excellent ripoffs of very famous Italian handbags and leather goods, another produces Italian shoes. They do not get the labels applied in Bandung, but are shipped out to the orderer who then completes the process of forgery.

You know, back in the 1970's you could trade Levis jeans for anything in Bali, and it didn't really matter if they were a bit worn. These days I always buy one or two pairs of jeans every time I go to Bali. Mostly these "Bali Levis" are better cut, better sewn, and the denim is better wearing than the real thing.But you need to shop around a bit, because there's some rubbish being offered too.

My big complaint with Indonesian manufacture of anything is that they do not control quality consistently. There is a pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats:- the product will be made, and after a teething period it will usually achieve excellence, but once that excellence has been achieved there will be a slow and imperceptible deterioration until it reaches the point where the orderer will not accept it. Then the producer will raise the quality again to a level where it is barely acceptable. This happens on a one-man, small scale level, and exactly the same in big business. It is a "pasar" approach to trade, in that it seeks to provide the minimum product for the maximum price, and has been the subject of several government and trade organisation investigations and reports. Pity, because the potential is there.

That nuclear business worries me a bit. I saw the other day they're going ahead with the reactor up on the north coast. Not good . Not good at all.

14th January 2008, 01:03 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	In this picture the two hits are near . Excluding the base they are pratically two of a kind . The beauty, harmony are on the contrary great Attached Images

10th January 2008, 08:12 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Oh yes--- the name of that town is Klaten.

11th January 2008, 11:24 AM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Thanks a lot Alan for your answer. Also I have many unsolved doubts I showed the first hilt to an art-tribal's seller in Milan and he said "probalby original" but, of course, for me is not enought. But in Kerobokan (Bali) i saw years ago another similar hilt (jointed to a litlle piece of rusty corroded iron) in a shop very famous for his reliability in tribal art dealer world (I woul like to know if, in the same condition, iron and bronze are the same corrosion or a different corrosion's speed) I found the second hilt in a home outside Yogya. The seller had a lot of nice old wood and ivory Cirebon, Tegal, Madura hits... and together the unclean bronze second hilt under discussion: his prize was the same of a honest ivory hilt (but... of course ... in all world the prize changes according to the numbers of successions an object has). A strange matter that probably is not good for an old aged confirm is that the hilts are enourmously alike. Thanks again and sorry for my english Marco

11th January 2008, 08:49 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Nothing wrong with your English, Marco---damn sight better than my Italian. Anyway--- ferric material corrodes much more quickly than brass or bronze. Most of the genuine old excavated bronzes that I have seen have been fairly thin and light, and mostly seem to be filled with a clay-like substance, rather than jabung or damar. The smooth parts of the material are very smooth and have nice even, dark patina.Old bronzes in general have a very refined, "gentle" feel to them---something that is difficult for me to put into words--- its almost as if when hold the object you can feel the age.This handle of yours just looks too heavy and unrefined. I could be 100% wrong, I'm no expert on bronzes, but to my eye it just doesn't look like genuine stuff I have seen and handled. If the price approximated ivory, that was probably not high enough. I have seen quite small , genuine bronzes change hands within the trade, in Jawa, for very impressive money.Something else too:- can you still see the lines of the cast and has the surface been well finished after casting? If you can still see the joints and there has been minimum finishing it is certain to be modern.Have you tested the material? Brass or bronze? If brass it is modern. After more than 40 years of buying things in Indonesia, I no longer take a great deal of notice of the "supporting evidence" when I buy. Anybody dealing on even the lowest commercial level knows what they can get for their goods, and the way something is presented --- for instance, with adhering deposits, or stubs of corroded iron--- is just so much window dressing.

14th January 2008, 01:40 PM	#6
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Pak Alan, Sorry for sending a poor joke. Yes, all like bronze period statues you can order or purchase in a small village near Klaten: CEPER. You will get "real and genuine" statues from bronze period. Why? When you ask its genuinity, CEPER VILLAGERS will say "IN MY VILLAGE, now, IS STILL IN BRONZE AGE" Just show Yvest Laurent bag to Tanggul Anginers OR Keris Kanjeng Kiai Smith to Aengtongtongers OR bronze/steel statue to Ceperers, you will realize that Indonesian can make everything... even nuclear if permitted and there is someone orders it warm salam, OeS

14th January 2008, 08:59 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	OK Pak Oesman---I thought you were on arak there for a minute. Yeah, I've seen the Ceper stuff. My memory of it is that it is not as finely finished (read:- as cleverly deceitful) as the pieces I've seen from East Jawa. I was told exactly where these were being made, but I've forgotten. I actually have a relative who owns some factories in Bandung one of which produces very excellent ripoffs of very famous Italian handbags and leather goods, another produces Italian shoes. They do not get the labels applied in Bandung, but are shipped out to the orderer who then completes the process of forgery. You know, back in the 1970's you could trade Levis jeans for anything in Bali, and it didn't really matter if they were a bit worn. These days I always buy one or two pairs of jeans every time I go to Bali. Mostly these "Bali Levis" are better cut, better sewn, and the denim is better wearing than the real thing.But you need to shop around a bit, because there's some rubbish being offered too. My big complaint with Indonesian manufacture of anything is that they do not control quality consistently. There is a pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats:- the product will be made, and after a teething period it will usually achieve excellence, but once that excellence has been achieved there will be a slow and imperceptible deterioration until it reaches the point where the orderer will not accept it. Then the producer will raise the quality again to a level where it is barely acceptable. This happens on a one-man, small scale level, and exactly the same in big business. It is a "pasar" approach to trade, in that it seeks to provide the minimum product for the maximum price, and has been the subject of several government and trade organisation investigations and reports. Pity, because the potential is there. That nuclear business worries me a bit. I saw the other day they're going ahead with the reactor up on the north coast. Not good . Not good at all.