genuine of fake?

RSWORD · 10th January 2008, 04:21 AM

I have often said that a few buying mistakes along your collecting experience is simply tuition to be paid to our hobby. I don't know of a single long term collector that has not made a buying mistake of one form or another. While it can be discouraging and frustrating and annoying one has to look at it as a great lesson. I know of serious students of the hobby that will actually purchase a few of the really good reproductions to study against authentic examples. Also, over time, the more examples you can actually handle, both good and bad, will provide you with a base of knowledge to help you in your collecting endeavors.

asomotif · 10th January 2008, 02:49 PM

Hello Bart,

A complicated question.
Especially when Keris are concerned.
The newmade blades are sometimes so well made.

I often use the 'SEARCH' function on this website to look for earlier threads and see what was discussed and if pictures where posted for comparison.

Good luck,
Willem

Montino Bourbon · 10th January 2008, 03:46 PM

There's wonderful work being done today; look at the 'masters of fire' exhibit and you can see contemporary blades that are worthy of a king. Useable, beautiful, and also art that will appreciate with time. In a few hundred years, some of the blades made today will be classics.

So I have no argument with something totally modern if it's good.

A 'fake' is something else; it's usually something being passed for something else. A well-made modern sword being sold as an antique is a 'fake' antique, but may be an excellent sword. Then the question becomes one of knowing the real value of the piece, and experience, a lot of it, and handling as many pieces as you can personally helps, along with guidance from experienced collectors.

Again, it depends on what you want and what you expect. Art that you like now, and that really shows care and inspiration in the creation of it, will probably stand the test of time.

And yes, it's difficult to be sure when buying something from a picture and a description on ebay. That's why collecting is an adventure!

Henk · 10th January 2008, 07:10 PM

Bart,

All members who placed a reaction on your topic are right.

Alan's topic (A.G. Maisey) is one to learn by heart.
Emanuel's advice is one to remember. We are not allowed to discuss pending auctions, but talk with other knowledgeable forummembers or fellowcollectors in your neighbourhood about a piece you might consider to buy.

Sometimes hestiation is a missed change on a marvelous piece, but a missed change can turn out in a peaceful feeling in your wallet.

Battara · 11th January 2008, 07:22 PM

I echo what everyone else has said plus one other thing.

I do research on what I like including handling and museums. Thus when I come up on something I don't know anything about or little about I pass (as hard as that is sometimes). I usually don't get anything I have not researched.

t_c · 12th January 2008, 08:22 PM

Ditto on all of the above.
One thing that has helped me though is understanding the material process by which weapons are created. If you understand forging, tempering, jewelry making, wood carving, finishing, etc. you will be able to "see into" a piece better.

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2008, 09:33 PM

Earlier mentioned a world renowned authority on Javanese art and the keris who made mistakes.

In the past this gentleman was regarded by some people in the Javanese keris trade as something like a bank account that could be drawn on at will. They would produce, one way or another, something unique that had not been see before, take it along to this gentleman with a wonderful story and a sufficiently high price, and it was almost certain that he would buy.

Now, he could, and can, afford to take risks, and sometimes his gambles paid off, but for those of us who have limited funds it is perhaps best to play the game more safely.

I have bought one keris off ebay. Only one. I bought that because I had sold it six months previously and I was able to buy it back for a fraction of what it would cost in Jawa.I do not buy off ebay because for the most part I cannot see sufficient to give me confidence to buy. If I wanted to gamble, and have fun, I would buy from ebay. But I don't want to do this with keris. I do buy from ebay, and I do have fun, but I do not buy keris or weaponry, I buy things like English silver and photographic equipment and canoes.

Research is an integral part of the experience equation, but it is very difficult to apply any experience in some situations.

10th January 2008, 03:46 PM	#3
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	'New' and 'fake' There's wonderful work being done today; look at the 'masters of fire' exhibit and you can see contemporary blades that are worthy of a king. Useable, beautiful, and also art that will appreciate with time. In a few hundred years, some of the blades made today will be classics. So I have no argument with something totally modern if it's good. A 'fake' is something else; it's usually something being passed for something else. A well-made modern sword being sold as an antique is a 'fake' antique, but may be an excellent sword. Then the question becomes one of knowing the real value of the piece, and experience, a lot of it, and handling as many pieces as you can personally helps, along with guidance from experienced collectors. Again, it depends on what you want and what you expect. Art that you like now, and that really shows care and inspiration in the creation of it, will probably stand the test of time. And yes, it's difficult to be sure when buying something from a picture and a description on ebay. That's why collecting is an adventure!

10th January 2008, 04:21 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I have often said that a few buying mistakes along your collecting experience is simply tuition to be paid to our hobby. I don't know of a single long term collector that has not made a buying mistake of one form or another. While it can be discouraging and frustrating and annoying one has to look at it as a great lesson. I know of serious students of the hobby that will actually purchase a few of the really good reproductions to study against authentic examples. Also, over time, the more examples you can actually handle, both good and bad, will provide you with a base of knowledge to help you in your collecting endeavors.

10th January 2008, 02:49 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	Hello Bart, A complicated question. Especially when Keris are concerned. The newmade blades are sometimes so well made. I often use the 'SEARCH' function on this website to look for earlier threads and see what was discussed and if pictures where posted for comparison. Good luck, Willem

10th January 2008, 07:10 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Bart, All members who placed a reaction on your topic are right. Alan's topic (A.G. Maisey) is one to learn by heart. Emanuel's advice is one to remember. We are not allowed to discuss pending auctions, but talk with other knowledgeable forummembers or fellowcollectors in your neighbourhood about a piece you might consider to buy. Sometimes hestiation is a missed change on a marvelous piece, but a missed change can turn out in a peaceful feeling in your wallet.

11th January 2008, 07:22 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I echo what everyone else has said plus one other thing. I do research on what I like including handling and museums. Thus when I come up on something I don't know anything about or little about I pass (as hard as that is sometimes). I usually don't get anything I have not researched.

12th January 2008, 08:22 PM	#6
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Ditto on all of the above. One thing that has helped me though is understanding the material process by which weapons are created. If you understand forging, tempering, jewelry making, wood carving, finishing, etc. you will be able to "see into" a piece better.

12th January 2008, 09:33 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Earlier mentioned a world renowned authority on Javanese art and the keris who made mistakes. In the past this gentleman was regarded by some people in the Javanese keris trade as something like a bank account that could be drawn on at will. They would produce, one way or another, something unique that had not been see before, take it along to this gentleman with a wonderful story and a sufficiently high price, and it was almost certain that he would buy. Now, he could, and can, afford to take risks, and sometimes his gambles paid off, but for those of us who have limited funds it is perhaps best to play the game more safely. I have bought one keris off ebay. Only one. I bought that because I had sold it six months previously and I was able to buy it back for a fraction of what it would cost in Jawa.I do not buy off ebay because for the most part I cannot see sufficient to give me confidence to buy. If I wanted to gamble, and have fun, I would buy from ebay. But I don't want to do this with keris. I do buy from ebay, and I do have fun, but I do not buy keris or weaponry, I buy things like English silver and photographic equipment and canoes. Research is an integral part of the experience equation, but it is very difficult to apply any experience in some situations.