Origins of Gorda/Gurda

[S.Al-Anizi]

Hi All!

Interesting topic. Strange thing is that this word has also been passed to Arabic, specifically the Nejdi dialect, in which it is used to name a straight bladed sword, Gurda.

[ariel]

That's interesting!
original Arabian sword were straight, as everybody knows.
So, here are my questions:
- Is this name recent ? How old?
-does Gurda refer to a specific straight sword or to the class in general?
- Any other characteristics ( markings?) of Gurda?
-Any connection with European blades?

[ariel]

Yet another tantalizing hint: Elgood mentions Burton's note of Western Arabian swords with European blades called Majar ( Hungarian).

[Kiziria]

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Kiziria

Hello gentlmen!
Allow me to introduce myself and join this disscusion!
To trace the origin of so called "GURDA" or "GORDA" is truly difficult , since there so many convinsing theories.
I could add though, that highlanders of Eastern Georgia, Caucasus usually have few legendary tales to tell when asked about origin of GORDA. Some attributed to local master Gorda, some to secret recepy of alloy, some to swords of a European crusaders, and few more.
It seems to me, the fact that arabian dialect has a similar word for "straight sword" only adds to mystery. And good one theory too, because as we well know many arabic words found its place among Caucasian and European languages.

Welcome to the forums Kiziria .

[ariel]

As usual, I was the most absentminded one...
Vakhtang, Gamarjoba and welcome to the Forum!
I thought your insight into "David Peruli" was very clever.
Just like the European/Persian swords came to the Caucasus, the Caucasian ones went to the entire Middle East. Somebody mentioned that a good proportion of the "Persian" blades in the Louvre are , in fact, Caucasian "forgeries". I guess the same might be true about Teheran National Museum as well

[Jim McDougall]

This was an interesting discussion, and its theme was essentially one of the purposes of the 'early trademarks thread'. While that thread seems to have pretty much run its course, and still stands holding important data for further research, I wanted to add some information I have just discovered , and wanted to place it on this thread.

Regardless of the local term applied, or the colloquial terms used by collectors, these opposed crescent or semi circles and thier origin remain somewhat a mystery. It is generally held that the marking, typically with lines or 'teeth' added, derives from early markings denoting quality on the blades of Genoa. The marks were duplicated in other regions and centers of blade makers with the quality connotation carried forward.

It is unclear whether the toothed half circles ever were those of a particular maker, and I am inclined to believe that they were likely guild marks that became used in various centers in Italy. With the blades exported to other trade centers, it is likely they were duplicated by local makers to suggest blade quality, much as this was done by native makers in North Africa, India and of course, the Caucusus.

In a documentary I was just viewing, there was mention of early Christian symbolism, and the fish becoming a symbol for Jesus. Apparantly early Christians, using stylized symbolism when meeting, would draw a line in the earth of a semi circle. The other, in response if himself a Christian, would also draw a semicircle with his foot, superimposed on the other, the two depicting a stylized fish.
I think that eventually these semi circles became important in symbolism disassociated with that particular meaning in degree, as disjoined elements, and eventually in Italy became trademarks for a guild of bladesmiths. It would be interesting if this could be substantiated, but does seem a plausible theory for the beginnings of the opposed semicircles. I believe that the paired crescent moons reflected these 'eyelash' or 'sickle marks' in their dual representation. Naturally duality is also very important in symbolism.

The anchor is also mentioned as an early Christian symbol, and as such, is discussed on the forementioned thread.

The eyelash or sickle marks became important in a number of blade centers, and commonly used in Styria, India, North Africa and the Caucusus with the purpose of suggesting blade quality. This just seemed interesting in looking at the possible beginnings of the marks.

Best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

Another Forum is having a thread initiated by a Caucasian buff ( ); the gist is that the origin of Caucasian blades locally dubbed " David Peruli" ( or, as some sources call it, "davitperuli") both sounding rather "Georgian", is in fact a mispronounciation of David Ferrara, an Italian master whose blades were popular in the area in the 17-18th centuries.
Another example of Korda/Gorda?

[Montino Bourbon]

furnish a link to the other forum, please? is that allowed?

[ariel]

Moderators,
Am I allowed to furnish a link to other forum?

[Rick]

Ariel , we have a new member with comments (see post #9) .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Another Forum is having a thread initiated by a Caucasian buff ( ); the gist is that the origin of Caucasian blades locally dubbed " David Peruli" ( or, as some sources call it, "davitperuli") both sounding rather "Georgian", is in fact a mispronounciation of David Ferrara, an Italian master whose blades were popular in the area in the 17-18th centuries.
Another example of Korda/Gorda?

This was interesting, and it adds further mystery to the long standing arms conundrum of 'Andrea Ferrara'.
Ariel noted in his query concerning 'gurda', "was it a 'class' of sword?", which has proven also to be key in the Andrea Ferrara situation.

Reviewing notes as well as the outstanding reference on Italian edged weapons, "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (L.Boccia & E.Coelho, Milan, 1975), it seems, as mentioned often, that there is considerable doubt that any blademaker named Andrea Ferrara ever actually existed. Even blades with this marking presented in the authoritative reference by Boccia & Coelho are referenced with question marks.
It seems that listings of nearly all significant Italian blademakers and the comprehensive records kept by the guilds have enabled arms historians to establish actual addresses and locations of virtually all of these makers. That is not the case with the Ferrara's, where no such locations have been found. It is also interesting that the 'name' inscribed in the blades, even for one in Boccia & Coelho (op.cit. p.384 #481) the name is above and below, with each encapsulated at either end, contrary to the continuum of name and surname.

Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs, in his remarkable article "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (J.A.A.S. Vol.V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92), also brings attention to the 'Ferrara' dilemma. He notes personal correspondence from Sir James Mann in 1958 stating "...I have never seen any sword which could creditably be attributed to Andrea dei Ferari of Belluno". Mann continues by noting, "...the Baron de Cosson many years ago pointed out that the name Andrea Ferrara is used on blades just the same as found on blades of certain kinds, i.e. Andrea Ferara on broad blades; Sahagun on a different kind of broad blade; Tomas Ayala on rapier blades, in fact the names were each a kind of brand for a certain type of sword".
Further, he notes that Calomarde in his "Historia Politica de Aragon" mentions an Andres Ferrara working in Saragossa, so the Solingen smiths using the name so freely probably were thinking of a Spaniard rather than an Italian. It is well known the Solingen smiths used Spanish names consistantly on thier export blades.

It has been suggested that the Latin term for iron (=ferrum) may be the root of the name, and that 'andrew', an early colloquial term for 'true' or 'good' may correspond to 'andrea'. The term 'andrea ferara' may then be applied as a quality mark, just as the German 'eisenhauer' (=iron cutter).
There is also the Italian place Ferrara, which may associate.

The Caucasian term (rather than name) 'David Peruli' may be considered in the same parlance mentioned here. I recall discussions with the author of an important book on Caucasian weapons years ago, in which I was told the term 'pranguli' was often applied to a particular type of straight bladed Khevsur sword. It is tempting to consider the apparant similarity of 'pranguli' and 'peruli' which may support this perspective.

I thought this material might prove of interest with regard to the terminology associated with sword blades.