AssadUllah Cartouche/Stamp

ALEX · 31st December 2007, 10:13 AM

Thank You Ward, Ariel, Jim, Rick and Jeff for nice discussion and informative opinions. I agree with Ward, I doubt is can be representation of a dog, as dogs would Never appear on anything of spiritual importance in Middle East. Also, I think the name Kalb, or Kalib, even sounding similar to "dog" in Arabic does NOT mean it literally. Jeff, the stamp does read "AssadUllah" and not Kalib Ali, but you've made very interesting point and suggestion. Thank You!
Ariel, I agree with your point, it does look Shamsy, BUT it has a fairly high contrast, and Shams is defined as low contrast wootz. Here is the picture of what Artzi describes as "Fantastic Wootz!", and I agree with him, even though it's wawy without any planar distortions, it is of high contrast, and this does mean quality! I inspected it very closely, and test-etched it, and this sword, when cleaned, will look similar.
Thanks to All!

rand · 31st December 2007, 03:20 PM

Hello Alex,

Interesting sword you have, Could you tell me if there are any occlusians along the spine of the blade? If there are any occlussians, are they filled with silver?

rand

ALEX · 31st December 2007, 03:35 PM

Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-)
Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)

rand · 31st December 2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-)
Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)

Hello Alex,

Reason for asking about the occlussians on the spine was because they can be an indication of origen and quality, as you suggested.

The photo of Artzi's wootz blade that most people think of as sham may be erroneous, there is very little published of early wootz blades that show the surface pattern to use as reference and what is currently assumed may be wrong.

rand

ALEX · 31st December 2007, 04:21 PM

Rand, this is Very Interesting theory and discussion. I'd love to hear more of your reasoning and opinion on the pattern, occlusion/fold line and origin determination based on above. And, in particular, an opinion on this sword.

Jeff D · 31st December 2007, 06:01 PM

Hi Alex and Ward.

You both are correct of course, on the lowly status of the dog in Islam. However i have been led to believe that the dog is a symbol of loyalty in Shi'a lore. Kalb'Ali meaning 'dog of the Exalted' makes more sense in this context.
I have seen the dog/wolf cartouche on only one occassion, although it was better executed than the posted sample there were similarities particularly the tail. Your example could be as discussed earlier, a poorly detailed lion and this is much more likely with the confirmation on the signature.
I think the dog cartouche is extremely rare for the reasons you both have mentioned.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2007, 06:16 PM

Jeff, thank you for bringing in this information. That makes perfect sense for the dog to represent loyalty symbolically, and being a dog lover myself, makes me a lot happier than considering negative connotations for them

It is always fascinating to learn and understand more on the application of symbolism in the wider range of Islam that appear on these weapons.

All the best,
Jim

rand · 1st January 2008, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Rand, this is Very Interesting theory and discussion. I'd love to hear more of your reasoning and opinion on the pattern, occlusion/fold line and origin determination based on above. And, in particular, an opinion on this sword.

Hey Alex,

Would you tell me the length of the blade in a straight line from tip to edge at hilt?

Thanks,

rand

ALEX · 6th January 2008, 04:49 PM

Rand,
The blade is 31 1/2, overall is 36 1/2, the width at forte is 1 1/8.

Also, let me entertain this idea: perhaps it is not a dog or lion but a TIGER!
I am not suggesting it belonged to Tipu himself but perhaps it had to do something with the concept-)

31st December 2007, 10:13 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thank You Ward, Ariel, Jim, Rick and Jeff for nice discussion and informative opinions. I agree with Ward, I doubt is can be representation of a dog, as dogs would Never appear on anything of spiritual importance in Middle East. Also, I think the name Kalb, or Kalib, even sounding similar to "dog" in Arabic does NOT mean it literally. Jeff, the stamp does read "AssadUllah" and not Kalib Ali, but you've made very interesting point and suggestion. Thank You! Ariel, I agree with your point, it does look Shamsy, BUT it has a fairly high contrast, and Shams is defined as low contrast wootz. Here is the picture of what Artzi describes as "Fantastic Wootz!", and I agree with him, even though it's wawy without any planar distortions, it is of high contrast, and this does mean quality! I inspected it very closely, and test-etched it, and this sword, when cleaned, will look similar. Thanks to All! Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 31st December 2007 at 10:37 AM.

31st December 2007, 03:20 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Blades Spine Hello Alex, Interesting sword you have, Could you tell me if there are any occlusians along the spine of the blade? If there are any occlussians, are they filled with silver? rand

31st December 2007, 03:35 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Rand, I think the "fold line" is present. It is not filled. I'll look more closely, and try to capture it on film:-) Also, I always pay attention to these lines/oclusions, as they indicate that the blade is folded, i.e. forged, and most good wootz blades do have them. Is it the reason you asked:-)

31st December 2007, 04:21 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Rand, this is Very Interesting theory and discussion. I'd love to hear more of your reasoning and opinion on the pattern, occlusion/fold line and origin determination based on above. And, in particular, an opinion on this sword.

31st December 2007, 06:01 PM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Alex and Ward. You both are correct of course, on the lowly status of the dog in Islam. However i have been led to believe that the dog is a symbol of loyalty in Shi'a lore. Kalb'Ali meaning 'dog of the Exalted' makes more sense in this context. I have seen the dog/wolf cartouche on only one occassion, although it was better executed than the posted sample there were similarities particularly the tail. Your example could be as discussed earlier, a poorly detailed lion and this is much more likely with the confirmation on the signature. I think the dog cartouche is extremely rare for the reasons you both have mentioned. All the Best Jeff

31st December 2007, 06:16 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Jeff, thank you for bringing in this information. That makes perfect sense for the dog to represent loyalty symbolically, and being a dog lover myself, makes me a lot happier than considering negative connotations for them It is always fascinating to learn and understand more on the application of symbolism in the wider range of Islam that appear on these weapons. All the best, Jim

6th January 2008, 04:49 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Rand, The blade is 31 1/2, overall is 36 1/2, the width at forte is 1 1/8. Also, let me entertain this idea: perhaps it is not a dog or lion but a TIGER! I am not suggesting it belonged to Tipu himself but perhaps it had to do something with the concept-)