Interesting Tulwar with faint engraved design....Any Ideas ?

[Jim McDougall]

WOW! David, incredibly compelling and well researched material!
I can only say I am more than impressed with this information. I really like this kind of follow up in studying a weapon, and the way you make an observation or suggestion, then find and present your support.
As I have noted on the pirate weapons thread, there were indeed Indian vessels in trade as well as even pirate vessels, from India's west coast as you have mentioned.
It seems that some time ago in studying trade routes, I had come across information that suggested that there were certain taboos involved with the sea, and that many Indians basically avoided going to sea. I do know of course that with British presence in India from the opening of the 17th century, and certainly with the East India Co. and the Royal Navy that there was navy there but hadnt thought of a standing Indian navy. It seems that I had read some time ago that Indians often had reservations concerning going to sea, but I cannot recall the source presently. Obviously that cannot be true as further research Indian naval history, as you have shown, is extensive and quite ancient.

The notes you have placed on the widespread occurrence of certain symbols in SEA, Africa and India reveal many interesting possibilities in cultural diffusion, that again seem well supported by the information you have presented here. I have always considered the often subtle connections between Africa and India well established, the weapons of course our main consideration. One case in point is the Hadendoa dagger's hilt, which always make me think of the Indian chilanum and then there is the madu, associated with the haladie, which is established in Sudanese weaponry.

In looking further at this weapon, it seems more of an interpretation of a tulwar, especially the hilt which is heavy and 'thick' in appearance. the vestigial quillons are most interesting, again, particularly with the scallop shell.This motif was well known in Spanish material culture, and of course was seen on various shellguard maritime weapons as well. There seem to be many considerations in place here, as the chakra symbolism you have noted is well placed and as you note, Hindu, and would be most interesting coupled with such European symbolism.

Thank you so much David for this beautifully presented and well supported material. Lets continue!!!

All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim,
here is some more info on Indian seafaring. Quotes from a PDF (address below, page 16 to 44)


".......India's maritime history can be broadly divided into five distinct periods— the Hindu period extending from the hoary past to the middle of the 15th century A.D., the Portuguese period from the closing years of the 15th century to the end of the 16th century; two British periods—from 1612 to 1830 and from 1830 to 1947; and the Indian period which commenced on August 15, 1947. The British period is divided into two parts because in 1830, the East India Company's Navy in India underwent two major changes; it was constituted as a combatant service and given the name Indian Navy...

.... Late Professor Buhler,the well-known German orientalist, expressed the view that "there are passages in ancient Indian works which prove the early existence of navigation of the Indian Ocean and the somewhat later occur rences of trading voyages undertaken by Hindu merchants to the shores of the Persian Gulf and its rivers."......

This fact is further borne out by available works in the languages of the littoral states of the region; such as Sindhi, Gujarati, Marathi, Konkani, Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil, Telugu, Oriya and Bengali; the writings of foreign travellers and historians—Chinese, Arabic and Persian—which contain observations on Indian subjects; the evidence available from archaeology—epigraphic, monumental and numismatic; and Indian and foreign art and foreign literature—English, Greek, Portuguese, French, Dutch, Persian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic,Malay, Thai, Burmese and Sinhalese.

Some of the little-known facts about the extent of commercial and cultural influence of India and sea-borne trade using ships built in India during the Hindu period (pre-Christian era to the middle of the 15th Century A.D.) are: :¦ —The Matsya Yantra5 (the fish machine), an iron fish floating on oil Q i t i g to the north serving as a primitive compass used by Indian sea- farers for several millennia (as per Hindu mythology, Matsya was the first incarnation of LordVishnu).


During the Hindu period, considerable maritime activity took place in the waters around India. As described by Megasthenes, the royal shipyards of the Mauryas built seagoing ships of various classes.

……..on September 5, 1612. This date is regarded by the British as the foundation day of the Royal Indian Navy, as the first arrival of their warships in India and the formation of the Indian Marine took place on this day.
The nucleus of the Indian Marine consisted at that time mainly of some warships built in
England and a larger number of vessels built in India. The Ghurabs were heavy beamy vessels
(about 300 tons) of shallow draft and were armed with six 9 to 12-pouiider guns while the
Galivats were smaller craft (about 70 tons) mounting half-a-dozen 2 to 4-pounders. The crews of these craft consisted mainly of Hindu fishermen from the Konkan Coast.



http://indiannavy.nic.in/under2ensigns.pdf


It seems that naval activity, warfare and trade has been rife in the Indian Ocean for hundreds of years ....way back to 200BC and beyond.
The Maratha Fleet (Hindu state) commanded by Kanhoji Angre had great sucess in battle. Other fleets were employed by the Moghuls and other Indian states.


David

This was another interesting thought....not relating to the sword though..


Portuguese supremacy over the waters around India was thus established
and reached its zenith during the days of Albuquerque.
But in 1580, when Portugal joined hands with Spain and the Spanish Armada suffered a crushing defeat, it changed the course of events around the globe, one of its off shoots being the decline of Portuguese supremacy in the Indian region. It is a moot point that if the Spanish Armada had triumphed, the United States could in all probability have become a Latin American country and India a Portuguese dominion! '

[spiral]

Interesting piece, The faint zig zag etc markings were identical on the ricasso of this peace I had at one time. It is now in an established private Sikh collection.

I presumed it was Sikh or Afghani from either, Punjab or NWF Border area or maybe even into Khyber or some such perhaps?

it was about 22 inches long , all wootz crystaline steel. Strangly found bricked up in an old English famhouse wall during re building. Bit of wicca/earth magic I suppose.

I thought it seemed a very old piece.

Spiral

[katana]

Thanks Spiral,
nice functional piece, unusual to have such a quality blade with a plain-ish hilt, 'bricked up in an old farm house' ..... strange but

I fairly certain that this Tulwar is Indian, the blade is fixed in the traditional
way (resin) and the hilt, although slightly unusual, is 'within' the range of normal size. When viewed from the top the 'width' widens as it reaches the langets, a feature I have not seen before.

[katana]

A gentle cleaning of the hilt ...to further remove some active (red) rust has revealed ...what appears to be silver plating.... approx. 60 % remains but is lightly pitted, there is evidence of some dark patterning on some of the remaining silver but is very faint / worn. I'll try and add pictures later.

Would the plating help ID the Region of India that this Tulwar may have originated ?

David

[fernando]

Hi David

Originally Posted by katana

... Portuguese supremacy over the waters around India was thus established
and reached its zenith during the days of Albuquerque.
But in 1580, when Portugal joined hands with Spain and the Spanish Armada suffered a crushing defeat, it changed the course of events around the globe, one of its off shoots being the decline of Portuguese supremacy in the Indian region. It is a moot point that if the Spanish Armada had triumphed, the United States could in all probability have become a Latin American country and India a Portuguese dominion! '

I am deeply impressed with such flow of information ... honestly. Thanks for sharing it.

Allow me just a little touch up in some paragraphs, for reasons connected with context.
As a matter of fact, Portugal didn't properly "join hands" with Spain to form the Armada. At the time Portugal's hands were tied by Spanish Philipine dominium, and the ships plus countless means of artillery were sort of "requisitioned" by the Spaniards for the battle.
I don't know that, if Spain had triumphed ( and it only didn't apparently due to weather conditions ), Portugal would widen its dominium in India, but on the contrary, due to Spanish diversion of tastes, Portugal existing supremacy in the Orient has drasticaly reduced during Spain domination.

Obviously my ( hipotheticaly right ) coments only seek historical objectives.

All the best

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David



I am deeply impressed with such flow of information ... honestly. Thanks for sharing it.

Allow me just a little touch up in some paragraphs, for reasons connected with context.
As a matter of fact, Portugal didn't properly "join hands" with Spain to form the Armada. At the time Portugal's hands were tied by Spanish Philipine dominium, and the ships plus countless means of artillery were sort of "requisitioned" by the Spaniards for the battle.
I don't know that, if Spain had triumphed ( and it only didn't apparently due to weather conditions ), Portugal would widen its dominium in India, but on the contrary, due to Spanish diversion of tastes, Portugal existing supremacy in the Orient has drasticaly reduced during Spain domination.

Obviously my ( hipotheticaly right ) coments only seek historical objectives.

All the best

Hi Fernando,
my friend, these were not my own deductions, but a quote from the same reference as the previous material. As such it was probably taken 'out of context' and was just a 'simple' view point. I didn't check the references.
As to the Armada, you are indeed correct ...the weather conditions greatly helped its demise.
I thought it interesting how history could have been so dramatically changed by the outcome of a single battle/ historical incident ....for instance if Napoleon had taken Russia or if we (British/Allies) lost the 'battle of Britain.

Happy New Year

Regards David

[katana]

Some pics of the nearly cleaned hilt, certainly seems to be silver with faint remains of a 'fish scale' pattern (snake ? Naga ?) which does not show up clearly. I have found a picture of a similarly decorated hilt but mine is more 'scale-like'.

Seems that another decorative feature of the hilt ie the scales, could indicate associations with the sea

Please, has anyone any ideas as to origin ?


Kind Regards David