Interesting Tulwar with faint engraved design....Any Ideas ?

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2007, 12:49 AM

Hi David,
Most unusual! and as always you have great observations. The scalloped shell is something I cannot say I've seen, and though I dont know of specifically instituted navy in India that would have issued weapons as such, it surely seems plausible (maybe this should be on the pirate weapons thread

I agree with your thoughts on probable period though, it does seem late 18th c.
More research !!!
All the best,
Jim

ariel · 20th December 2007, 01:25 AM

The eyelah mark looks very weak.The semicircles remind me of Thai Dhas.
Even the contour of the handle does not look Indian.
I have a strange feeling that it was not made in India. SE Asia?????
I know, I know, it DOES sound silly...

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2007, 05:12 AM

Actually Ariel, your thoughts might not be so silly. There is something very unusual about this hilt, the quillons and langet notwithstanding. The hilt seems heavy and disproportionate, and those circles with small prongs around do seem like markings like this on Cham (I believe) dhas and weapons. the arrangement of opposed semicircles and strategically placed 'solar' symbols at either end recall the often seen 'sickle' marks.
While this weapon is of the period suggested and of tulwar form, it does seem atypical overall.
The shell motif David mentioned was indeed a good suggestion, but I am wondering if there might be some auspicious Buddhist symbolism here rather than maritime use? Would the scallop shell be symbolically significant much as the conch shell is as one of the auspicious symbols?

best regards,
Jim

katana · 20th December 2007, 05:05 PM

Searching on the internet I found these two images of the same sword....looks very similar to mine. Unfortunately there were no references or information about it. So ...at least there is more than one.

Below are two pictures from Artzi's site the first are markings on an Afghani Poulwar , the second (which has identical 'circle' markings as my own) is Indian and on the blade of a Tulwar.

As the Piso Podang has Indian influences I've been looking for a possible link with Tulwars and SEA......so far ...nothing

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2007, 01:26 AM

Excellent note on the piso podang David! That indeed is an example of the tulwar in SEA regions, but this one is so profoundly different. As always, it seems I have seen something like this before, and as you have shown there are obviously more of them.
The toothed circle markings in the other examples you posted seem to be grouped in arrangements approximating markings seen on many European blades.. the grid of these are like some seen on 'firangi' blades, the others seem to reflect again the key numeric three.

While this toothed circle does of course appear on dhas as I have noted, this by no means suggests the mark is exclusive there as we know simple geometric marks appear in many cultural spheres with different meanings.

All the best,
Jim

ariel · 21st December 2007, 04:50 AM

I do not recall ever seeing a Tulwar with up-turned quillons

katana · 21st December 2007, 02:54 PM

It seems that India has a great Naval History, travelling to Africa, the Middle East,around the coastlines of the Indian Ocean (SEA) and there is evidence to suggest even Australia / NZ.

African slaves were taken to India.....

".....About the middle of the fifteenth century (1437), when the Bahamani dynasty became independent of Delhi and intercourse with "North India ceased, the fashion arose of bringing to Western India large numbers of Abyssinians and other East Africans. [The trade in slaves from the African coast to Egypt, Arabia and India had been going on from prehistoric times. During the time of the author of the Periplus (A.D. 70 and 80), Abyssinian slaves were exported from Opone from the Egyptian market where they were, in demand on account of their docility, courage and intelligence (Vincent's Commerce of the Ancients, II. 157). Under the Shilahara rulers of the Konkan (A.D. 810-1260), slaves are mentioned as sent from Sofala in Africa to the Thana ports [Ibn Aluradv (950) Reinaud's Abulfida, cccvii ]. Towards the end of the fifteenth centurv Abyssinian slaves were in high estimation in Turkey, Arabia and India. They were docile, tractable, intelligent and endowed with talents and courage which always raised them to favour and often to command. [Vincent's Commerce, II. 122 note 3, and Nikitin: (1470). India in Fifteenth Century 9, 10, 12 ]. In India these slaves were employed by Musalmans as soldiers' and sailors. In the beginning of the sixteenth century (1514) Barbosa notices the high value attached by Moors to Abyssinian slaves, who were Christians, taken, in war. These Christian slaves were sharp, well-built, and faithful, and when they became Musalmans they were better than the original Moors (Stanley, 18). During the period of Portuguese power in the Konkan (1530-1739) the import of African slaves into India continued brisk. Great numbers of house-slaves were brought by Portuguese ships from Africa and spread all over the Portuguese territories. The number of slaves varied from six to ten in a small establishment and from thirty to forty in a large establishment. Besides working as farm-servants they carried umbrellas and palanquins and did other menial work. They cost little to buy, and scarcely anything to keep, only a dish of rice once a day. Some of these blacks were sold in war, some by their parents, and others, in despair, barbarously sold themselves [Gemelli Careri in Churchill, IV. 203; Terrv (1618) in Kerr's Voyages. IX. 392; Badger's Varthema 114, 151: Nairne's Konkan. 50 ]|. Hamilton (1680-1720) notices that a good store of Mozambique negroes was brought to India. They were held in high esteem by the Indian Portuguese who made them Christians ......"

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=57&gl=uk

Perhaps, this explains why the 'toothed circle' and the cresent design is found in African, Indian and SEA weapons.(the 'concentric circle' is another 'motif' which is widespread in the same regions) The symbolism adopted? but from whom ?

AFAIK the connection between Africa and India is not widely known. One of India's great Sea Commanders was apparently either African or Afro Indian (sources vary) his name was Kanhoji Angre, who's Naval exploits had the British 'brand him' as a pirate. Whom was undefeated until his death in 1729.
The Indian ships were well constructed and a match for any navy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanhoji_Angre
http://www.desijournal.com/book.asp?articleid=48

I think that the case of Kanhoji Angre shows that there was some 'intergration' of African/indian, by trade, slavery and marriage. Cross cultural influences between Africa and India looks almost a certainty.

Perhaps this Tulwar was from the West coast of India, perhaps Naval.

The disc pommel displays the Ashoka's dharma chakra, with 24 spokes (after Ashoka, the Great). Each spoke depicts one hour of the day, portraying the prevalence of righteousness all the 24 hour of it. It is displayed in the Indian Flag. So at least, I think, this sword started life as a Hindu weapon.

Regards David

Heres an interesting fact...not related to the sword.....

"... "discovered" by the late Commander (special) G.E. Walker, who was the Judge Advocate General of the RIN immediately before Independence, is that the Jack flown by the Indian Marine in 1612 was the flag worn by ships on the American side during the War of Independence when they rejected the Union Jack. The Jack of the Indian Marine was thus the first flag of the U.S.A. which over the years developed into the stars and stripes. The Indian Marine Jack had seven red and six white stripes and in the position occupied by the stars today, was displayed the St. George's Cross. This flag forms a part of the insignia of the existing RIN Association in the U.K. ..."

20th December 2007, 05:05 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Searching on the internet I found these two images of the same sword....looks very similar to mine. Unfortunately there were no references or information about it. So ...at least there is more than one. Below are two pictures from Artzi's site the first are markings on an Afghani Poulwar , the second (which has identical 'circle' markings as my own) is Indian and on the blade of a Tulwar. As the Piso Podang has Indian influences I've been looking for a possible link with Tulwars and SEA......so far ...nothing Regards David Attached Images

21st December 2007, 02:54 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	It seems that India has a great Naval History, travelling to Africa, the Middle East,around the coastlines of the Indian Ocean (SEA) and there is evidence to suggest even Australia / NZ. African slaves were taken to India..... ".....About the middle of the fifteenth century (1437), when the Bahamani dynasty became independent of Delhi and intercourse with "North India ceased, the fashion arose of bringing to Western India large numbers of Abyssinians and other East Africans. [The trade in slaves from the African coast to Egypt, Arabia and India had been going on from prehistoric times. During the time of the author of the Periplus (A.D. 70 and 80), Abyssinian slaves were exported from Opone from the Egyptian market where they were, in demand on account of their docility, courage and intelligence (Vincent's Commerce of the Ancients, II. 157). Under the Shilahara rulers of the Konkan (A.D. 810-1260), slaves are mentioned as sent from Sofala in Africa to the Thana ports [Ibn Aluradv (950) Reinaud's Abulfida, cccvii ]. Towards the end of the fifteenth centurv Abyssinian slaves were in high estimation in Turkey, Arabia and India. They were docile, tractable, intelligent and endowed with talents and courage which always raised them to favour and often to command. [Vincent's Commerce, II. 122 note 3, and Nikitin: (1470). India in Fifteenth Century 9, 10, 12 ]. In India these slaves were employed by Musalmans as soldiers' and sailors. In the beginning of the sixteenth century (1514) Barbosa notices the high value attached by Moors to Abyssinian slaves, who were Christians, taken, in war. These Christian slaves were sharp, well-built, and faithful, and when they became Musalmans they were better than the original Moors (Stanley, 18). During the period of Portuguese power in the Konkan (1530-1739) the import of African slaves into India continued brisk. Great numbers of house-slaves were brought by Portuguese ships from Africa and spread all over the Portuguese territories. The number of slaves varied from six to ten in a small establishment and from thirty to forty in a large establishment. Besides working as farm-servants they carried umbrellas and palanquins and did other menial work. They cost little to buy, and scarcely anything to keep, only a dish of rice once a day. Some of these blacks were sold in war, some by their parents, and others, in despair, barbarously sold themselves [Gemelli Careri in Churchill, IV. 203; Terrv (1618) in Kerr's Voyages. IX. 392; Badger's Varthema 114, 151: Nairne's Konkan. 50 ]\|. Hamilton (1680-1720) notices that a good store of Mozambique negroes was brought to India. They were held in high esteem by the Indian Portuguese who made them Christians ......" http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=57&gl=uk Perhaps, this explains why the 'toothed circle' and the cresent design is found in African, Indian and SEA weapons.(the 'concentric circle' is another 'motif' which is widespread in the same regions) The symbolism adopted? but from whom ? AFAIK the connection between Africa and India is not widely known. One of India's great Sea Commanders was apparently either African or Afro Indian (sources vary) his name was Kanhoji Angre, who's Naval exploits had the British 'brand him' as a pirate. Whom was undefeated until his death in 1729. The Indian ships were well constructed and a match for any navy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanhoji_Angre http://www.desijournal.com/book.asp?articleid=48 I think that the case of Kanhoji Angre shows that there was some 'intergration' of African/indian, by trade, slavery and marriage. Cross cultural influences between Africa and India looks almost a certainty. Perhaps this Tulwar was from the West coast of India, perhaps Naval. The disc pommel displays the Ashoka's dharma chakra, with 24 spokes (after Ashoka, the Great). Each spoke depicts one hour of the day, portraying the prevalence of righteousness all the 24 hour of it. It is displayed in the Indian Flag. So at least, I think, this sword started life as a Hindu weapon. Regards David Heres an interesting fact...not related to the sword..... "... "discovered" by the late Commander (special) G.E. Walker, who was the Judge Advocate General of the RIN immediately before Independence, is that the Jack flown by the Indian Marine in 1612 was the flag worn by ships on the American side during the War of Independence when they rejected the Union Jack. The Jack of the Indian Marine was thus the first flag of the U.S.A. which over the years developed into the stars and stripes. The Indian Marine Jack had seven red and six white stripes and in the position occupied by the stars today, was displayed the St. George's Cross. This flag forms a part of the insignia of the existing RIN Association in the U.K. ..." Last edited by katana; 21st December 2007 at 03:06 PM.

20th December 2007, 12:49 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	Hi David, Most unusual! and as always you have great observations. The scalloped shell is something I cannot say I've seen, and though I dont know of specifically instituted navy in India that would have issued weapons as such, it surely seems plausible (maybe this should be on the pirate weapons thread I agree with your thoughts on probable period though, it does seem late 18th c. More research !!! All the best, Jim

20th December 2007, 01:25 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The eyelah mark looks very weak.The semicircles remind me of Thai Dhas. Even the contour of the handle does not look Indian. I have a strange feeling that it was not made in India. SE Asia????? I know, I know, it DOES sound silly...

20th December 2007, 05:12 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	Actually Ariel, your thoughts might not be so silly. There is something very unusual about this hilt, the quillons and langet notwithstanding. The hilt seems heavy and disproportionate, and those circles with small prongs around do seem like markings like this on Cham (I believe) dhas and weapons. the arrangement of opposed semicircles and strategically placed 'solar' symbols at either end recall the often seen 'sickle' marks. While this weapon is of the period suggested and of tulwar form, it does seem atypical overall. The shell motif David mentioned was indeed a good suggestion, but I am wondering if there might be some auspicious Buddhist symbolism here rather than maritime use? Would the scallop shell be symbolically significant much as the conch shell is as one of the auspicious symbols? best regards, Jim

21st December 2007, 01:26 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,668	Excellent note on the piso podang David! That indeed is an example of the tulwar in SEA regions, but this one is so profoundly different. As always, it seems I have seen something like this before, and as you have shown there are obviously more of them. The toothed circle markings in the other examples you posted seem to be grouped in arrangements approximating markings seen on many European blades.. the grid of these are like some seen on 'firangi' blades, the others seem to reflect again the key numeric three. While this toothed circle does of course appear on dhas as I have noted, this by no means suggests the mark is exclusive there as we know simple geometric marks appear in many cultural spheres with different meanings. All the best, Jim

21st December 2007, 04:50 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I do not recall ever seeing a Tulwar with up-turned quillons