Pirate swords and weapons

katana · 17th December 2007, 08:33 PM

Hi Jim,
what an excellent idea, I'll try and do some 'digging' (NO treasure map) and see what I can find.

I do know that it was common to shorten the blades of captured swords to improve their 'functionality' on board ship.

Kind Regards David

spiral · 17th December 2007, 09:59 PM

Fascinating Subject Jim! I to presume they would use any captured piece that took thier fancy or was fittest for the job.

The exhibition was called ... " Pirates - The Skull and Crossbones."

The published works of the exhibition at The National Maritime museum, Haifa, Israel, were published in 2002.

But sadley I havent any seen of the catalouges.

Spiral

RhysMichael · 17th December 2007, 10:54 PM

Jim
A while back I told you about a sword at a resturant in Charleston called "Queen Anne's Revenge" (for obvious reasons). As I am sure you know Charleston's pirate history is extensive. The owner there has been collecting pirate artifacts for a good while (I am told decades) and has many of them on display in the resturant. The one I wrote of on here had a Nimcha ( Saif ) hilt and a blade from what looked to be a takouba. There are more than a dozen other swords on display there some are indeed hangers. I do not have photos from there but there are video tours from a news clip on the resturant here under the tours section that give a brief view of some of them.

http://www.qarevenge.com/

The priates soul museum in key west may be a good contact as well. They have a large collection but not many online photos of it
http://www.piratesoul.com/contact.aspx

While not all pirate the National Maritime Museum online collection is here and contains over 300 edged weapons, thats 300 online I think and more than 600 in its total collection (BTW they have a link on their page to this site )
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/exp...tegory/weapons

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2007, 05:25 AM

Thank you so much for the great responses guys!!! I really do think we can have some fun and exciting adventure with this topic!
You're right David, they did shorten down the blades on a lot of these weapons...wasn't a lot of room to wave around a three or four foot sword on those tiny decks!

Spiral, thanks for the name of that exhibition. I wish I had the copy of the catalog handy right now....it was an incredible reference, and most impressive accuracy. Maybe Artzi will read this and might have suggestions about copies.

Rhys Michael, I am determined to get to Charleston one of these days and think that will be on the GPS soon. Excellent links BTW ! Thank you! During the earlier dives on the "Queen Annes Revenge" I had a number of great conversations with Wayne Lusardi and we often joked about the finds because I always grumbled about the cannons...where are the swords I said!! Dont think they ever found any. There were some distinct finds on the "Henrietta Marie" I believe with a shellguard English hanger, and on the "Whydah" I think there were some.
The book "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol) by May & Annis has great illustrations of many of these swords from the National Maritime Museum.

Its been a while since that saif with the takouba blade! but what a great example of the great diversity of weapons used in the mkany forms of piracy.

One book that comes to mind here that has great references on this topic is "Boarders Away" by Gilkerson.

One weapon that seems to come up in illustrations of pirate weapons, but is seldom focused on, is the Scottish basket hilt. It has been established that Blackbeard was actually dispatched by a blow by one of these, but it seems that a Highlander who had joined with British expedition chasing him was simply aboard at the time, not necessarily regularly at sea. Any thoughts on whether the basket hilt was actually employed at sea?

One thing that has really inspired me to address this subject on pirate swords is these pirate websites that inevitably show the brass basketguard 'cutlass' which is actually a M1860 U.S. naval cutlass of Civil War period. I think Wyeth perpetrated this is some of his otherwise magnificent illustrations.

While obviously European and British hangers of the mid 17th century prevail as those used on pirate vessels, thier adventures into the waters of the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean surely provided them with many forms of exotic weapons. Elgood shows karabela hilt nimcha with widened blade tip that may well have been used at sea by pirates from Muscat and others.

So many possibilities!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 18th December 2007, 08:05 AM

Great thread Jim, I love them there pirates....hence my handle, Freebooter.

As with the trademark thread, just not a lot of time this time of year but I will leave you all with these images of an Executioners axe from the Danish West indies.

I bid with fury on this many years ago but just didn't have the coin to win at the time.

The images of the gallows and the wheel on this axe are very sinister, the gallows I am sure we all know about, but for those who have not seen the spoked wheel before, don't confuse it with a makers mark.

This wheel was a horrible things. For further reading follow this link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel

This particular group of images is what pirates were on the receiving end of if they were ever caught.

katana · 18th December 2007, 02:59 PM

Hi Jim,
due to the close proximity of combatants on the decks of a ship, it is my understanding that basket hilted swords (European pirates and Privateers) were favoured, not only for the protection of the hand ( a crew with badly injured hands would have great difficulty in 'sailing ship') but also to strike your opponent,to stun ....before the coupe de gras. It seems that the cutlass blade was favoured for its weight (which was comparable to longer blades.) A basic functional 'chopper' suited to its use.
Apparantly the Barbary pirates favoured the Nimcha, however I cannot find any pictures or any reference to the dimensions of the blades.

A link to other pirates or those considered pirates....

http://www.national-army-museum.ac.u...ks/page2.shtml

Was hoping that the flags used by pirates might provide clues....nothing conclusive (a number of weapons shown) so far but this gives a little more 'background'

http://pvcbanners.co.uk/world-flags/...s/pirates.html

Regards David

Jim, interestingly the first flag has latin (?) similar to early makers marks

.

Norman McCormick · 19th December 2007, 10:19 PM

Hello,
Here's a blade I picked up a while ago and although probably dating from the latter half of the 18th Century, well after the pirate "golden age", I think it illustrates quite well the type of weapon most associated with buccaneers and pirates. The blade is 26 inches long pretty sharp and is most likely from a Government issue cutlass/hangar type weapon, the GR mark. If the makers mark on the tang rings a bell with anybody please let me know. Any more info or corrections, again, please let me know.
Regards,
Norman.

17th December 2007, 10:54 PM	#3
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Jim A while back I told you about a sword at a resturant in Charleston called "Queen Anne's Revenge" (for obvious reasons). As I am sure you know Charleston's pirate history is extensive. The owner there has been collecting pirate artifacts for a good while (I am told decades) and has many of them on display in the resturant. The one I wrote of on here had a Nimcha ( Saif ) hilt and a blade from what looked to be a takouba. There are more than a dozen other swords on display there some are indeed hangers. I do not have photos from there but there are video tours from a news clip on the resturant here under the tours section that give a brief view of some of them. http://www.qarevenge.com/ The priates soul museum in key west may be a good contact as well. They have a large collection but not many online photos of it http://www.piratesoul.com/contact.aspx While not all pirate the National Maritime Museum online collection is here and contains over 300 edged weapons, thats 300 online I think and more than 600 in its total collection (BTW they have a link on their page to this site ) http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/exp...tegory/weapons Last edited by RhysMichael; 17th December 2007 at 11:32 PM.

18th December 2007, 08:05 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Great thread Jim, I love them there pirates....hence my handle, Freebooter. As with the trademark thread, just not a lot of time this time of year but I will leave you all with these images of an Executioners axe from the Danish West indies. I bid with fury on this many years ago but just didn't have the coin to win at the time. The images of the gallows and the wheel on this axe are very sinister, the gallows I am sure we all know about, but for those who have not seen the spoked wheel before, don't confuse it with a makers mark. This wheel was a horrible things. For further reading follow this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel This particular group of images is what pirates were on the receiving end of if they were ever caught. Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 18th December 2007 at 08:21 AM.

18th December 2007, 02:59 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, due to the close proximity of combatants on the decks of a ship, it is my understanding that basket hilted swords (European pirates and Privateers) were favoured, not only for the protection of the hand ( a crew with badly injured hands would have great difficulty in 'sailing ship') but also to strike your opponent,to stun ....before the coupe de gras. It seems that the cutlass blade was favoured for its weight (which was comparable to longer blades.) A basic functional 'chopper' suited to its use. Apparantly the Barbary pirates favoured the Nimcha, however I cannot find any pictures or any reference to the dimensions of the blades. A link to other pirates or those considered pirates.... http://www.national-army-museum.ac.u...ks/page2.shtml Was hoping that the flags used by pirates might provide clues....nothing conclusive (a number of weapons shown) so far but this gives a little more 'background' http://pvcbanners.co.uk/world-flags/...s/pirates.html Regards David Jim, interestingly the first flag has latin (?) similar to early makers marks . Attached Images Last edited by katana; 18th December 2007 at 03:32 PM.

19th December 2007, 10:19 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hello, Here's a blade I picked up a while ago and although probably dating from the latter half of the 18th Century, well after the pirate "golden age", I think it illustrates quite well the type of weapon most associated with buccaneers and pirates. The blade is 26 inches long pretty sharp and is most likely from a Government issue cutlass/hangar type weapon, the GR mark. If the makers mark on the tang rings a bell with anybody please let me know. Any more info or corrections, again, please let me know. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

17th December 2007, 08:33 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, what an excellent idea, I'll try and do some 'digging' (NO treasure map) and see what I can find. I do know that it was common to shorten the blades of captured swords to improve their 'functionality' on board ship. Kind Regards David

17th December 2007, 09:59 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Fascinating Subject Jim! I to presume they would use any captured piece that took thier fancy or was fittest for the job. The exhibition was called ... " Pirates - The Skull and Crossbones." The published works of the exhibition at The National Maritime museum, Haifa, Israel, were published in 2002. But sadley I havent any seen of the catalouges. Spiral

18th December 2007, 05:25 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much for the great responses guys!!! I really do think we can have some fun and exciting adventure with this topic! You're right David, they did shorten down the blades on a lot of these weapons...wasn't a lot of room to wave around a three or four foot sword on those tiny decks! Spiral, thanks for the name of that exhibition. I wish I had the copy of the catalog handy right now....it was an incredible reference, and most impressive accuracy. Maybe Artzi will read this and might have suggestions about copies. Rhys Michael, I am determined to get to Charleston one of these days and think that will be on the GPS soon. Excellent links BTW ! Thank you! During the earlier dives on the "Queen Annes Revenge" I had a number of great conversations with Wayne Lusardi and we often joked about the finds because I always grumbled about the cannons...where are the swords I said!! Dont think they ever found any. There were some distinct finds on the "Henrietta Marie" I believe with a shellguard English hanger, and on the "Whydah" I think there were some. The book "Swords for Sea Service" (2 vol) by May & Annis has great illustrations of many of these swords from the National Maritime Museum. Its been a while since that saif with the takouba blade! but what a great example of the great diversity of weapons used in the mkany forms of piracy. One book that comes to mind here that has great references on this topic is "Boarders Away" by Gilkerson. One weapon that seems to come up in illustrations of pirate weapons, but is seldom focused on, is the Scottish basket hilt. It has been established that Blackbeard was actually dispatched by a blow by one of these, but it seems that a Highlander who had joined with British expedition chasing him was simply aboard at the time, not necessarily regularly at sea. Any thoughts on whether the basket hilt was actually employed at sea? One thing that has really inspired me to address this subject on pirate swords is these pirate websites that inevitably show the brass basketguard 'cutlass' which is actually a M1860 U.S. naval cutlass of Civil War period. I think Wyeth perpetrated this is some of his otherwise magnificent illustrations. While obviously European and British hangers of the mid 17th century prevail as those used on pirate vessels, thier adventures into the waters of the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean surely provided them with many forms of exotic weapons. Elgood shows karabela hilt nimcha with widened blade tip that may well have been used at sea by pirates from Muscat and others. So many possibilities!! All very best regards, Jim