Very Old Firangi with Rapier blade in need of restoration.

katana · 9th December 2007, 11:52 PM

Hi Jim, thanks

Well, still convinced, that this sword was not just used in the thrust, and encouraged by the banana cutting

and Richard's discription of the Pata lime cutting. I thought I would experiment slightly further, using the Firangi with a parallel , 180 degree arcing 'cut' with the fruit target elevated on a large 'wicker' candle stick.....

Melon anybody

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2007, 03:55 AM

Wow! well done David!
I have visions of you wearing a mask and cape in this 'test'!!

I guess I've seen Zorro way too many times. You've really proved your point though, this blade can definitely slash as well.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 10th December 2007, 01:33 PM

Hi Jim,

thanks, sorry no cape or mask

.

My wife had bought the melon a few days ago, sat in the fruit bowl near to where I sit. I was thinking about the rapier blade being fully edged ....then looking at both..... thought .....' I wonder'.

The true point of the exercise was to demonstate, although I am not a skilled swordsman, the ease of its use. The blade has not been sharpened for a very long time, yet, it retains a reasonably 'keen' edge (suggests to me the quality of the steel). I think that the amount of training to use such a sword would be relatively easy for the average native swordsman.

I have also discovered, several martial arts, that originated in India, involve 'stick fencing'. They are centuries old (one dated to 200 AD) and not only require 'strikes' to your opponent ......but thrusts and jabs as well.
It would have been an easy transition from stick to 'rapier' blade. In Gatka, the Sikh martial art, sticks are used to learn the technique of swordplay.

Regards David

katana · 4th February 2008, 08:21 PM

After a little more research in trying to find this type of sword's function on the battle field ...I discovered another 'rapier' bladed Indian sword, the mel puttah bemoh, interestingly used two-handed. Has anyone any more info on this sword and its use??

http://books.google.com/books?id=J5P...x8I_8TnD8HJ3qQ

Thank you
Regards David

katana · 5th February 2008, 05:46 PM

Because the blade of a 'Mel puttah bemoh' is relatively thin and light, you surely would not need to hold it two handed, yes it would give greater power with the 'cut' but the blade design is not ideal. I am thinking that this may have been used by foot soldiers against cavalry because of the 'long reach'.

I have only seen one example of a 'Mel puttah bemoh' in Stone's and a number of the 'Rapier bladed Firangi' on the net etc. Not one pocesses a scabbard, perhaps none of them had one originally

To my mind, this type of sword may have been carried onto the battlefield whilst still carrying a Tulwar/Dhal. After the Cavalry charges ...the sword discarded....and the Tulwar/Dhal used in the melee

Anyone ...any thoughts

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2008, 11:36 PM

I think you're right David, and without going headlong into research at this point, it does seem I have seen something to that effect mentioned in a discussion on these some time ago. It is not at all unusual to have certain weapon forms that were essentially expendable after initial shock in combat. Firearms were very much in that category into the 19th century, and even pistols were useless (except in some cases as bludgeons) after thier single discharge. Lances were obviously useless after the charge, in the ensuing melee, and swords such as the estoc were used separately from the sabre.

I think that these two handed swords, were probably anti cavalry and likely used in bringing down horses, and as I mentioned, it seems there were groups assigned specifically assigned for this gruesome task. I hope I can find more on this in either notes or reference, so I will leave it as an unsupported suggestion at this point.

All best regards,
Jim

9th December 2007, 11:52 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thanks Well, still convinced, that this sword was not just used in the thrust, and encouraged by the banana cutting and Richard's discription of the Pata lime cutting. I thought I would experiment slightly further, using the Firangi with a parallel , 180 degree arcing 'cut' with the fruit target elevated on a large 'wicker' candle stick..... Melon anybody Attached Images

10th December 2007, 03:55 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Wow! well done David! I have visions of you wearing a mask and cape in this 'test'!! I guess I've seen Zorro way too many times. You've really proved your point though, this blade can definitely slash as well. All the best, Jim

10th December 2007, 01:33 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim, thanks, sorry no cape or mask . My wife had bought the melon a few days ago, sat in the fruit bowl near to where I sit. I was thinking about the rapier blade being fully edged ....then looking at both..... thought .....' I wonder'. The true point of the exercise was to demonstate, although I am not a skilled swordsman, the ease of its use. The blade has not been sharpened for a very long time, yet, it retains a reasonably 'keen' edge (suggests to me the quality of the steel). I think that the amount of training to use such a sword would be relatively easy for the average native swordsman. I have also discovered, several martial arts, that originated in India, involve 'stick fencing'. They are centuries old (one dated to 200 AD) and not only require 'strikes' to your opponent ......but thrusts and jabs as well. It would have been an easy transition from stick to 'rapier' blade. In Gatka, the Sikh martial art, sticks are used to learn the technique of swordplay. Regards David

4th February 2008, 08:21 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	After a little more research in trying to find this type of sword's function on the battle field ...I discovered another 'rapier' bladed Indian sword, the mel puttah bemoh, interestingly used two-handed. Has anyone any more info on this sword and its use?? http://books.google.com/books?id=J5P...x8I_8TnD8HJ3qQ Thank you Regards David

5th February 2008, 05:46 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Because the blade of a 'Mel puttah bemoh' is relatively thin and light, you surely would not need to hold it two handed, yes it would give greater power with the 'cut' but the blade design is not ideal. I am thinking that this may have been used by foot soldiers against cavalry because of the 'long reach'. I have only seen one example of a 'Mel puttah bemoh' in Stone's and a number of the 'Rapier bladed Firangi' on the net etc. Not one pocesses a scabbard, perhaps none of them had one originally To my mind, this type of sword may have been carried onto the battlefield whilst still carrying a Tulwar/Dhal. After the Cavalry charges ...the sword discarded....and the Tulwar/Dhal used in the melee Anyone ...any thoughts Regards David

5th February 2008, 11:36 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	I think you're right David, and without going headlong into research at this point, it does seem I have seen something to that effect mentioned in a discussion on these some time ago. It is not at all unusual to have certain weapon forms that were essentially expendable after initial shock in combat. Firearms were very much in that category into the 19th century, and even pistols were useless (except in some cases as bludgeons) after thier single discharge. Lances were obviously useless after the charge, in the ensuing melee, and swords such as the estoc were used separately from the sabre. I think that these two handed swords, were probably anti cavalry and likely used in bringing down horses, and as I mentioned, it seems there were groups assigned specifically assigned for this gruesome task. I hope I can find more on this in either notes or reference, so I will leave it as an unsupported suggestion at this point. All best regards, Jim