Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I also appreciate Katana's comments as being the lucid and focused information I am seeking. I believe it was he who first pointed out the idea of this being themed on Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame."

I hope that we can avoid acrimony and comments intended to be playfully sarcastic that got the previous thread about this dagger, closed.

I still don't believe it was designed as a satanic piece. Possibly pagan, but most likely a themed dagger as has been mentioned before. BUT it does have some symbolism, whether the creator intended it or was just copying ideas.

It also does have a certain presence that perhaps only Spiral and I can know, among us, since we have held it.

Certainly I would like to find deeper meaning in this piece, whatever its genesis. Whether it is a communication regarding the "K&C of the H.G.A." or we should ask Ozzy Osbourne for deeper meaning, I don't know. <very large grin intended here>

But I would appreciate more comments as to what historical, symbolical or literary ideas might be represented here. And if there are literary forums I might pursue regarding this, please let me know by PM or post here.

Two of the major questions I have regard first the angle of the neck.

It does seem to be broken. I have personally, though it may look a little strange, tried to mimic postures repeated in symbolic artifacts, like African figures, to try to gain a better understanding of what the creator (Small "c") intended. Holding your neck at this angle IS quite uncomfortable, so I am inclined to go with the idea of a broken neck, rather than 'affectionately looking at her goat.'

I like the idea of Esmeralda being modeled on "Agnes, the Lamb of God."

Second thing that I find quite curious is the orientation of the roofing tiles. This could indicate the scabbard was intended to be viewed point down. Possibly this is an error by the person who made it, perhaps intentional. Interesting slant.

I am very appreciative of all the comments here, but mostly those by Katana David. Please keep them coming.

Very well said and eloquently written Bill!!! and I could not agree more.

katana · 5th December 2007, 08:24 PM

Hi Bill,
there are indeed similarities to the positioning of the neck after hanging.

As hanging was more common at the time of your dagger, I suspect, that the 'people of the day' may have, possibly, recognised this as such.

Regards David

Andrew · 5th December 2007, 08:31 PM

There is a definite similarity.

Tim Simmons · 5th December 2007, 08:42 PM

Certainly looks like a hanged neck. Well done David. That would be part of the story. It appears we have a collection of themed daggers-

Hunch back of Notre Dame
Dante's Inferno
Last of the Mohicans

satanic anyone

spiral · 5th December 2007, 09:42 PM

Good one Katana, Perhaps that means its a depiction of the ghost of Esmerelda then?

I think you might need to look further afield than Dantes Inferno Tim, Before totaly dismissing a Satanic theme? unless owls & strangulation of skeletons feature in it?

As the Esmerelda knife shows, most things seem clearly represented even if despite Katana efforts a few pieces of the jigsaw are still missing.

Spiral

Andrew · 5th December 2007, 11:06 PM

Move along, please, chaps. Nothing to see here...

Bill M · 6th December 2007, 10:47 AM

I am hoping the moderators will allow this thread to continue, though it may be of less interest to some, I find it quite interesting. Perhaps ideas here will spark renewed interest in the symbols of weapons in other genres, like the "Maker's Marks" thread.

Katana. Excellent work on the position of Esmeralda's head.

Sparknotes on the Notre Dame Cathedral:

....... "the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."

Further study reflects earlier remarks that Notre Dame was a central character as the original French title was "Notre Dame de Paris."

TNT Educator notes: "Understanding the cathedral is fundamental to understanding Victor Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (In fact, Hugo devoted an entire book to a description of the cathedral and its role as the center of medieval Paris.) The original French title of the novel, Notre Dame de Paris, reflected this centrality. The English translation chose to de-emphasize the role of the building by changing the title to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The TNT move, The Hunchback, removes the cathedral from the title altogether. In all its various tellings, however, the cathedral is central not only to the story's setting but to its theme as well."

5th December 2007, 08:24 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Bill, there are indeed similarities to the positioning of the neck after hanging. As hanging was more common at the time of your dagger, I suspect, that the 'people of the day' may have, possibly, recognised this as such. Regards David Attached Images

5th December 2007, 08:31 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	There is a definite similarity.

5th December 2007, 08:42 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	Certainly looks like a hanged neck. Well done David. That would be part of the story. It appears we have a collection of themed daggers- Hunch back of Notre Dame Dante's Inferno Last of the Mohicans satanic anyone

5th December 2007, 09:42 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Good one Katana, Perhaps that means its a depiction of the ghost of Esmerelda then? I think you might need to look further afield than Dantes Inferno Tim, Before totaly dismissing a Satanic theme? unless owls & strangulation of skeletons feature in it? As the Esmerelda knife shows, most things seem clearly represented even if despite Katana efforts a few pieces of the jigsaw are still missing. Spiral

5th December 2007, 11:06 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Move along, please, chaps. Nothing to see here...

6th December 2007, 10:47 AM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I am hoping the moderators will allow this thread to continue, though it may be of less interest to some, I find it quite interesting. Perhaps ideas here will spark renewed interest in the symbols of weapons in other genres, like the "Maker's Marks" thread. Katana. Excellent work on the position of Esmeralda's head. Sparknotes on the Notre Dame Cathedral: ....... "the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone." Further study reflects earlier remarks that Notre Dame was a central character as the original French title was "Notre Dame de Paris." TNT Educator notes: "Understanding the cathedral is fundamental to understanding Victor Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (In fact, Hugo devoted an entire book to a description of the cathedral and its role as the center of medieval Paris.) The original French title of the novel, Notre Dame de Paris, reflected this centrality. The English translation chose to de-emphasize the role of the building by changing the title to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The TNT move, The Hunchback, removes the cathedral from the title altogether. In all its various tellings, however, the cathedral is central not only to the story's setting but to its theme as well."