Indian scrpt mark translation help needed

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2007, 12:11 AM

Interesting notes on the Jodphur Lancers, and that they indeed served in France and Palestine in WWI, and that the photos revealed no use of the kukri. Although the photos being considered do not show any kukri, this of course does not mean that they could not have been used by them, as such use may have been limited. I doubt very much that any kukris that might have been used however, would have been made exclusively for that unit. The diversification I suggested would have an ersatz development that would have precluded such defined attention, and if they were, it would seem they would have been stamped accordingly. It should be noted here that my suggestion of diversification of these units is of course speculation only and should remain regarded as such as we consider plausible ideas on why a lancer unit would be using kukris.

Since so many kukris were of course produced and widely used by many other forces than Gurkhas, then procuring such weapons for use might haved been accomplished via any number of ordnance diversions. Without specific markings or other evidence, such considerations to a specific unit must remain speculation as I have previously noted.

The kukri became a popular and fabled weapon much as did the 'Bowie' knife in America and of course commercialization undoubtedly found all manner of folklore and colorful tales to promote them. Unfortunately, these fables often present considerable problems in the accurate study of the weapons.

Spiral, may I ask more on your note that you have used the kukri for a long time.Were you in the British military? I have never handled a kukri, but am aware of the deep affection held for these knives not only by the Gurkhas themselves, but many military men. I recall research on the Gurkhas many years ago, and the late Brian Farwell ( author of "The Gurkhas") fondly telling me of him 'waving a kukri about' in talking of a documentary he appeared in for TV.

Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 5th December 2007, 09:53 PM

Hello Jim, No I am not military, but my father was a Chindit in Burma in ww2 , One of the ones who walked all the way in & out , not the ones flown in.

His unit was about 50% Gurkhas so I grew up hearing about them.

{Allthough it wasnt untilll my fathers last 18 days on the planet that he spoke of his actual expieriences that had haunted him for 50 years..}

a friend acrooss the road & myself when we were about 6 chopped his bedroom windowsill to pieces with his fathers ww2 mk.2 issue kukri. Most of the men in the road I grew up in had been in Burma or Malaya.

He must have got one hell of a hiding for that.

Its a shame you havent handled a kukri, But I guess if you wanted to you would have. They work well.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2007, 12:13 AM

Hi Spiral,
Thanks for answering my question, I hope that was OK to ask, but I wanted to know more on your affinity for the kukri and knowledge on them. I'm glad that you were able to complete things with your father and learn more on his experiences which had to have been quite troublesome, it was probably a great relief to him as well to release them. What great pride you must have that he was with this distinguished unit! and no wonder you are so in touch with the kukri. Such things certainly add great dimension to the history of these fascinating weapons.

With all very best regards,
Jim

ariel · 6th December 2007, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Hello Jim, No I am not military, but my father was a Chindit in Burma in ww2 , One of the ones who walked all the way in & out , not the ones flown in.

His unit was about 50% Gurkhas so I grew up hearing about them.

{Allthough it wasnt untilll my fathers last 18 days on the planet that he spoke of his actual expieriences that had haunted him for 50 years..}

a friend acrooss the road & myself when we were about 6 chopped his bedroom windowsill to pieces with his fathers ww2 mk.2 issue kukri. Most of the men in the road I grew up in had been in Burma or Malaya.

He must have got one hell of a hiding for that.

Its a shame you havent handled a kukri, But I guess if you wanted to you would have. They work well.

Spiral

So, he fought alongside Ord Wingate? That would be something... They do not make soldiers like that anymore!
My hat is off!

spiral · 6th December 2007, 04:31 PM

Thanks Jim, no problem. Yes I wish my father had told someone what it was like when he was still a young man. The men in his unit believed no one would understand the things you have to do when 400 miles behind enemy lines in a jungle for months on end, No hospital evacuations for your wounded mates in those days , to weak to carry the wounded from lack of food or dyssentry & malaria, they coudnt leave them for the japanese to play with. So they had there own pact with each other. How does one explain that to the fallen ones wives & parents?

Thanks Ariel, Yes he was one of the men Wingate selected at the start. My father had utmost respect for him.

He was only young, as most soldiers are.

The cloth badge was his, They only issued it to him when he went on leave at the end of it all.

He never collected his medals & gave away his bush hat & captured Japanese sword. Ive tried to recover them but no luck so far even though Id happily pay double or triple whatever anyone else would for them.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2007, 05:53 AM

Spiral, I'm with Ariel! My very deepest respect... outstanding!!!
Thank you so much for sharing the photos and material.
All best regards,
Jim

katana · 7th December 2007, 09:05 PM

Hi Spiral,
we 'touched' on your father's history before...when you kindly gave me info on my WW2 machete. I too wish to share my respect as well.

I found this painting which may or may not be of interest. It is a painting entitled "Sergeant McCabe at the Battle of Sobraon placing the Regimental Colour of the 31st Regiment on the Sikh ramparts, 10th February 1846." (Painting by Ackerman)

In the corner, one of the British soldiers is brandishing, what seems to be a Kukri. No other combatant has one, but neither he or the Sikh (he is about to attack) have scabbards so whether it belongs to the British soldier or has been taken from the Sikh is unclear. Were Kukri used by the British at this time? I've cropped and enlarge so that it can been seen better.

http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk...cabe/p005.html

Regards David

spiral · 8th December 2007, 04:17 PM

Thankyou katana,

Intersting picture! Not seen that one before.

It would have been not uncommen for officers in the Brit. Indian army to buy there own kukris at that time.

But the man holding the kukri is not in the Surrys Uniform & his skin colour matches that of the Sikhs. His uniform resembles Bengal Native infantry who at that time had numerous Gurkha units.

So most likely I think he is a Gurkha.

They were commonly used against the Sikhs at that time.

It was a British tradition to put the Gurkhas & the other native troops in the front line.

Spiral

7th December 2007, 09:05 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Spiral, we 'touched' on your father's history before...when you kindly gave me info on my WW2 machete. I too wish to share my respect as well. I found this painting which may or may not be of interest. It is a painting entitled "Sergeant McCabe at the Battle of Sobraon placing the Regimental Colour of the 31st Regiment on the Sikh ramparts, 10th February 1846." (Painting by Ackerman) In the corner, one of the British soldiers is brandishing, what seems to be a Kukri. No other combatant has one, but neither he or the Sikh (he is about to attack) have scabbards so whether it belongs to the British soldier or has been taken from the Sikh is unclear. Were Kukri used by the British at this time? I've cropped and enlarge so that it can been seen better. http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk...cabe/p005.html Regards David Attached Images

5th December 2007, 12:11 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Interesting notes on the Jodphur Lancers, and that they indeed served in France and Palestine in WWI, and that the photos revealed no use of the kukri. Although the photos being considered do not show any kukri, this of course does not mean that they could not have been used by them, as such use may have been limited. I doubt very much that any kukris that might have been used however, would have been made exclusively for that unit. The diversification I suggested would have an ersatz development that would have precluded such defined attention, and if they were, it would seem they would have been stamped accordingly. It should be noted here that my suggestion of diversification of these units is of course speculation only and should remain regarded as such as we consider plausible ideas on why a lancer unit would be using kukris. Since so many kukris were of course produced and widely used by many other forces than Gurkhas, then procuring such weapons for use might haved been accomplished via any number of ordnance diversions. Without specific markings or other evidence, such considerations to a specific unit must remain speculation as I have previously noted. The kukri became a popular and fabled weapon much as did the 'Bowie' knife in America and of course commercialization undoubtedly found all manner of folklore and colorful tales to promote them. Unfortunately, these fables often present considerable problems in the accurate study of the weapons. Spiral, may I ask more on your note that you have used the kukri for a long time.Were you in the British military? I have never handled a kukri, but am aware of the deep affection held for these knives not only by the Gurkhas themselves, but many military men. I recall research on the Gurkhas many years ago, and the late Brian Farwell ( author of "The Gurkhas") fondly telling me of him 'waving a kukri about' in talking of a documentary he appeared in for TV. Best regards, Jim

5th December 2007, 09:53 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hello Jim, No I am not military, but my father was a Chindit in Burma in ww2 , One of the ones who walked all the way in & out , not the ones flown in. His unit was about 50% Gurkhas so I grew up hearing about them. {Allthough it wasnt untilll my fathers last 18 days on the planet that he spoke of his actual expieriences that had haunted him for 50 years..} a friend acrooss the road & myself when we were about 6 chopped his bedroom windowsill to pieces with his fathers ww2 mk.2 issue kukri. Most of the men in the road I grew up in had been in Burma or Malaya. He must have got one hell of a hiding for that. Its a shame you havent handled a kukri, But I guess if you wanted to you would have. They work well. Spiral

6th December 2007, 12:13 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Spiral, Thanks for answering my question, I hope that was OK to ask, but I wanted to know more on your affinity for the kukri and knowledge on them. I'm glad that you were able to complete things with your father and learn more on his experiences which had to have been quite troublesome, it was probably a great relief to him as well to release them. What great pride you must have that he was with this distinguished unit! and no wonder you are so in touch with the kukri. Such things certainly add great dimension to the history of these fascinating weapons. With all very best regards, Jim

6th December 2007, 04:31 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks Jim, no problem. Yes I wish my father had told someone what it was like when he was still a young man. The men in his unit believed no one would understand the things you have to do when 400 miles behind enemy lines in a jungle for months on end, No hospital evacuations for your wounded mates in those days , to weak to carry the wounded from lack of food or dyssentry & malaria, they coudnt leave them for the japanese to play with. So they had there own pact with each other. How does one explain that to the fallen ones wives & parents? Thanks Ariel, Yes he was one of the men Wingate selected at the start. My father had utmost respect for him. He was only young, as most soldiers are. The cloth badge was his, They only issued it to him when he went on leave at the end of it all. He never collected his medals & gave away his bush hat & captured Japanese sword. Ive tried to recover them but no luck so far even though Id happily pay double or triple whatever anyone else would for them. Spiral

7th December 2007, 05:53 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Spiral, I'm with Ariel! My very deepest respect... outstanding!!! Thank you so much for sharing the photos and material. All best regards, Jim

8th December 2007, 04:17 PM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thankyou katana, Intersting picture! Not seen that one before. It would have been not uncommen for officers in the Brit. Indian army to buy there own kukris at that time. But the man holding the kukri is not in the Surrys Uniform & his skin colour matches that of the Sikhs. His uniform resembles Bengal Native infantry who at that time had numerous Gurkha units. So most likely I think he is a Gurkha. They were commonly used against the Sikhs at that time. It was a British tradition to put the Gurkhas & the other native troops in the front line. Spiral