My first Dha ....a few questions please

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th November 2007, 11:12 AM

Katana,
I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine.

Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank.

The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration.

I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North.

The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled.

Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

wilked aka Khun Deng · 17th November 2007, 11:23 AM

One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used.
None
Brass
Silver
Gold
Gold with enameling

If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family.

I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now

Dan

katana · 17th November 2007, 06:59 PM

Thank you for the great info Kronckew, its appreciated

What do you know of rattan braiding....have you done any? Any tips.

Hi Dan, thank you for the additional, interesting information. I am inclined to agree that the blade has been re-hilted, there seems to be a mismatch with the patina of the blade and that of the handle (the seller assures me that this has been in the family for 60 years so will assume the hilt is at least that old.) Could this blade be late 19thC - early 20 th C ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

............. and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side

Dan

Yo(Dha) says 'nice sword for collection you have, but ... for ultimate ....light sabre get you must'

kronckew · 17th November 2007, 11:14 PM

never done them in rattan myself, have done them in rope and cordage, the basic knotwork is the simple turks head shown on the linked page. thin rattan strips are soaked in hot water to make them pliable, then the knot is tied & tightened into place. have no idea where you'd get rattan, but as they use it to re-weave chair seats, there must be a craft supplier somewhere on the internet

katana · 18th November 2007, 09:58 PM

Great stuff Kronckew

, on the hilt the strands are about 1mm wide (1/25th of an inch) it has the look and feel of rattan but I am not certain. To cut rattan into strips 1mm wide seems a skilled process, unless a tool/jig is used.
Failing that, I am wondering whether I could finish the handle in Ray skin...but I am not certain if that would be 'acceptable' ...as I would like to keep the repairs as close to its ethnic origins as possible.

Regards

kronckew · 19th November 2007, 08:32 AM

hi katana,

found that 1.5mm 'carriage' cane strips used in reweaving cane chair seats is split from rattan. can find that on the internet in 25ft. thru 1000 ft. spools, the latter may be a bit more than you need

i gather in thailand/burma, in the areas they make dhas/darbs that the little old ladies of the family sit around making the rings in a range fairly std sizes so they can be slipped over the grips & adjusted into place without too much fuss.

i imagine the supply of similar little old ladies in your area may be a bit limited tho, which is why i suggested using some lengths of flat braided twine (non-fuzzy type) of roughly the same color.

here's one i prepared earlier (it's on a long (1.25in. dia) shafted Cold Steel Assegai) i used a fairly coarse organic string to improve the grip as i was not trying to match anything, the ends of the spirally wound area were pulled back under the last few turns & cut off, the whole was 'varnished' by soaking in extra virgin olive oil which dried nicely after a few weeks. the spear shaft was also so treated.

PUFF · 19th November 2007, 12:08 PM

Traditionally, native people in this area made rattan strip with knife like this...

But, if you try local furniture makers, you may find one at reasonable size... like this
http://www.marshallmcgurk.com/SitUpon/diysales.htm

You can follow Turk Head technique. These pictures may also help.
http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...CB%C7%D2%C2%2A
http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...A1%CA%D2%C1%2A
http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...CB%C7%D2%C2%2A

In one of those link. You may notice a metal can with holes. That 's a special tool for making very very thin strips. Dont forget to soak the strips and trim their nodes before passing through the hole(s).

katana · 19th November 2007, 08:39 PM

Hi Kronckew, I (again) appreciate your advice and help.

Hi Puff,
thank you for the additional information and links. It is always good to see the tools and techniques used by locals (which are used by the makers of the weapons we all cherish)

Kind Regards David

17th November 2007, 11:12 AM	#1
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Shan or Northern Thailand Katana, I'd have to agree with Mark on this one Shan or Northern Thailand the spine filed in that shape is something I've only seen on swords from those areas, most of the swords in Central Thailand either have a flat or rounded spine. Many have the cross-hatch and inserts and while there may be some significance to three of each (most I've seen have three) and the Thais believe 3 is a lucky number (at least thats what the gamblers keep telling me) actually all odd numbers are important, can't tell you why but if you look at the nobles umbrella they are all in odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9 depending on rank. The Erawan (elephant god) is depicted with three heads, Nagas again start with three and go up by odd numbers depending on rank. The one Mark shows in all in twos (maybe that was the original owners lucky number) but I still doubt that their placement on the weapon is more than decoration. I've seen fullers running 2/3 to 3/4 length on central Thai swords but they are usually very thin and not deep, yours is more pronounced and with the wonderful scroll work again leads me to believe North. The handle is very common but does not look Northern Thai. I've seen these in great numbers in Central Thailand (i'll have another look after I finish this) but I'm wondering if it got rehilted, either way the braided grass rings would have gone all the way down to the pommel and if the tang does in fact extend that far into the hilt it would longer than most I've seen dismantled. Either way it is definitely a true ethnographic weapon and a nice start for someone on the road to the Dha(K) side Dan

17th November 2007, 11:23 AM	#2
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	One more note One more note as reread the thread. there is also a ranking to the metals used. None Brass Silver Gold Gold with enameling If I remember right there was actually an old court decree that specified which rank you had to be before you could wear each - course I got that from a museum guide at the Royal Palace and can't confirm, however he was adamant about the fact that gold with enameling was reserved for members of the royal family. I have a gold ring that has my unit's crest on it, I used to have the same ring in silver, but when I became an Officer my wife insisted that I had to give it to my son and wear a gold one now Dan

19th November 2007, 08:32 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	hi katana, found that 1.5mm 'carriage' cane strips used in reweaving cane chair seats is split from rattan. can find that on the internet in 25ft. thru 1000 ft. spools, the latter may be a bit more than you need i gather in thailand/burma, in the areas they make dhas/darbs that the little old ladies of the family sit around making the rings in a range fairly std sizes so they can be slipped over the grips & adjusted into place without too much fuss. i imagine the supply of similar little old ladies in your area may be a bit limited tho, which is why i suggested using some lengths of flat braided twine (non-fuzzy type) of roughly the same color. here's one i prepared earlier (it's on a long (1.25in. dia) shafted Cold Steel Assegai) i used a fairly coarse organic string to improve the grip as i was not trying to match anything, the ends of the spirally wound area were pulled back under the last few turns & cut off, the whole was 'varnished' by soaking in extra virgin olive oil which dried nicely after a few weeks. the spear shaft was also so treated. Last edited by kronckew; 19th November 2007 at 08:43 AM.

17th November 2007, 11:14 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	never done them in rattan myself, have done them in rope and cordage, the basic knotwork is the simple turks head shown on the linked page. thin rattan strips are soaked in hot water to make them pliable, then the knot is tied & tightened into place. have no idea where you'd get rattan, but as they use it to re-weave chair seats, there must be a craft supplier somewhere on the internet

18th November 2007, 09:58 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Great stuff Kronckew , on the hilt the strands are about 1mm wide (1/25th of an inch) it has the look and feel of rattan but I am not certain. To cut rattan into strips 1mm wide seems a skilled process, unless a tool/jig is used. Failing that, I am wondering whether I could finish the handle in Ray skin...but I am not certain if that would be 'acceptable' ...as I would like to keep the repairs as close to its ethnic origins as possible. Regards

19th November 2007, 12:08 PM	#7
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	Traditionally, native people in this area made rattan strip with knife like this... But, if you try local furniture makers, you may find one at reasonable size... like this http://www.marshallmcgurk.com/SitUpon/diysales.htm You can follow Turk Head technique. These pictures may also help. http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...CB%C7%D2%C2%2A http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...A1%CA%D2%C1%2A http://www.thaiblades.com/forums/sho...CB%C7%D2%C2%2A In one of those link. You may notice a metal can with holes. That 's a special tool for making very very thin strips. Dont forget to soak the strips and trim their nodes before passing through the hole(s).

19th November 2007, 08:39 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Kronckew, I (again) appreciate your advice and help. Hi Puff, thank you for the additional information and links. It is always good to see the tools and techniques used by locals (which are used by the makers of the weapons we all cherish) Kind Regards David