New stick to pick over.

VANDOO · 14th November 2007, 05:40 AM

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY FIGHTING STICKS OF THAT FORM BUT IT RESEMBLES A SPEAR OR ARROW POINT FROM THE SOUTH PACIFIC OR A LOVE STICK FROM MICRONESIA. YOU CAN GOOGLE (MICRONESIA LOVE STICK) FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. IF IT IS LARGE ROUND AND HEAVY THAT WOULD ELIMINATE IT FROM BEING EITHER OF THE ABOVE. LOVE STICKS ARE USUALLY FLAT AND THIN AND SPEAR AND ARROW POINTS LIGHT AND THIN. THEY DO HAVE FIGHTING STICKS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC WHICH ARE GRIPPED IN THE MIDDLE AND CAN STRIKE TO EITHER SIDE THEY ARE USUALLY FAIRLY SHORT FOR SPEED AND SO THEY WONT STICK AS MULTIPLE STABS ARE OFTEN NECESSARY TO WIN A FIGHT. THE WOOD IN YOUR EXAMPLE DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THOSE USUALLY USED IN THE ISLANDS. GOOD LUCK I HOPE YOU FIND IT IS ACTUALLY WHAT YOU ARE WISHING FOR.

Tim Simmons · 14th November 2007, 11:31 AM

There is a stabbing form of "Nulla nulla" similar to this double pointed stick with a swelling in or near the centre as a grip. This link has not very impressive contemporary examples. So far I have been unable to find a picture of the short double pointed stabbing stick I have seen before.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...%3Den%26sa%3DG

Tim Simmons · 14th November 2007, 12:42 PM

Still looking for more finely made older sharpened examples but these show something of the form and AUS is a big place. The first link the example is 3cm longer than the thread starter. The second link the example is 9cm shorter.
http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/br112.html
http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/ct03.html

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2007, 11:14 PM

Hi Tim,
You always keep bringing in fascinating new entries from Africa, and it's great to learn more on the ever widening scope of weapons revealed from the cultures there thanks to you!
The fighting sticks are most interesting and I honestly know little about them aside from seeing something on them while researching the Sudanese 'haladie' some time ago. It is most interesting to see weapons of similar concept and presumably similar use coming from such vastly distant regions. The 'nulla nulla' you note from Australia, the 'haladie' which Stone notes in from Syria as well as found in the Sudan, and of course the buffalo horn 'madu' of India. While such vast distances suggest convergent evolution, it is tempting to consider early connections via trade in certain cases...although the Australian connection seems pretty remote

and probably unlikely of course.

Best regards,
Jim

fearn · 15th November 2007, 01:58 AM

Hi Jim,

I'm not sure about the convergence idea of poking someone with a sharp stick. It seems pretty intuitive to me

That said, I'm not comfortable with this item being a nulla. Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2007, 03:18 AM

Good point Fearn!!!

I was thinking more of the double pointed ends and the idea of using it held in the center, if that was indeed how it was used. I'm obviously not real familiar with these so kinda thinking out loud. As I've noted, Tim's threads and unusual African items are always a welcome learning experience!
All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2007, 07:34 AM

Clearly this is African, I was trying only to make a comparison to an AUS Aboriginal weapon I have seen a "version" of Nulla. Here is a quick sketch of the stick weapon I have seen in the past. Sadly untill somebody comes up with one or I find one in a book or a collection the drawing may as well be a Pooh stick.

katana · 16th November 2007, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Jim,

Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

Hi Fearn,
it does seem likely that this was turned on a lathe, however primative lathes have been around for centuries, one of the earliest know was around 1300 BC in Ancient Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polelathe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_turning

Regards David

katana · 16th November 2007, 05:46 PM

There is a version of this double ended 'club' from the Gilbert Isles, the picture is not to clear but seems to have 'cut rings' similar to Tim's.

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=13

16th November 2007, 05:46 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	There is a version of this double ended 'club' from the Gilbert Isles, the picture is not to clear but seems to have 'cut rings' similar to Tim's. http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=13 Attached Images

14th November 2007, 05:40 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY FIGHTING STICKS OF THAT FORM BUT IT RESEMBLES A SPEAR OR ARROW POINT FROM THE SOUTH PACIFIC OR A LOVE STICK FROM MICRONESIA. YOU CAN GOOGLE (MICRONESIA LOVE STICK) FOR FURTHER INFORMATION. IF IT IS LARGE ROUND AND HEAVY THAT WOULD ELIMINATE IT FROM BEING EITHER OF THE ABOVE. LOVE STICKS ARE USUALLY FLAT AND THIN AND SPEAR AND ARROW POINTS LIGHT AND THIN. THEY DO HAVE FIGHTING STICKS IN THE SOUTH PACIFIC WHICH ARE GRIPPED IN THE MIDDLE AND CAN STRIKE TO EITHER SIDE THEY ARE USUALLY FAIRLY SHORT FOR SPEED AND SO THEY WONT STICK AS MULTIPLE STABS ARE OFTEN NECESSARY TO WIN A FIGHT. THE WOOD IN YOUR EXAMPLE DOES NOT LOOK LIKE THOSE USUALLY USED IN THE ISLANDS. GOOD LUCK I HOPE YOU FIND IT IS ACTUALLY WHAT YOU ARE WISHING FOR.

14th November 2007, 11:31 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	There is a stabbing form of "Nulla nulla" similar to this double pointed stick with a swelling in or near the centre as a grip. This link has not very impressive contemporary examples. So far I have been unable to find a picture of the short double pointed stabbing stick I have seen before. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...%3Den%26sa%3DG

14th November 2007, 12:42 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Still looking for more finely made older sharpened examples but these show something of the form and AUS is a big place. The first link the example is 3cm longer than the thread starter. The second link the example is 9cm shorter. http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/br112.html http://www.flight-toys.com/artifacts/ct03.html

14th November 2007, 11:14 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Hi Tim, You always keep bringing in fascinating new entries from Africa, and it's great to learn more on the ever widening scope of weapons revealed from the cultures there thanks to you! The fighting sticks are most interesting and I honestly know little about them aside from seeing something on them while researching the Sudanese 'haladie' some time ago. It is most interesting to see weapons of similar concept and presumably similar use coming from such vastly distant regions. The 'nulla nulla' you note from Australia, the 'haladie' which Stone notes in from Syria as well as found in the Sudan, and of course the buffalo horn 'madu' of India. While such vast distances suggest convergent evolution, it is tempting to consider early connections via trade in certain cases...although the Australian connection seems pretty remote and probably unlikely of course. Best regards, Jim

15th November 2007, 01:58 AM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jim, I'm not sure about the convergence idea of poking someone with a sharp stick. It seems pretty intuitive to me That said, I'm not comfortable with this item being a nulla. Those are usually fairly primitive, and this one looks like it might have been on a lathe at some point.

15th November 2007, 03:18 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Good point Fearn!!! I was thinking more of the double pointed ends and the idea of using it held in the center, if that was indeed how it was used. I'm obviously not real familiar with these so kinda thinking out loud. As I've noted, Tim's threads and unusual African items are always a welcome learning experience! All best regards, Jim

15th November 2007, 07:34 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Clearly this is African, I was trying only to make a comparison to an AUS Aboriginal weapon I have seen a "version" of Nulla. Here is a quick sketch of the stick weapon I have seen in the past. Sadly untill somebody comes up with one or I find one in a book or a collection the drawing may as well be a Pooh stick.