A sociological and anthropological question

Montino Bourbon · 15th March 2005, 03:57 PM

I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful.

Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot.

A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons.

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

Ann Feuerbach · 15th March 2005, 04:05 PM

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

Hi Ann,

Nice to see you online. Feel free to email me.
I know I have your CD somewhere inside the original envelope, but the fact is that there are many things still to be unpacked as I moved in September or October and the pace of work has not let me get everything back to order.
Kindly remind me on the book's premises. You can email me from here

You had a boy friend but you ended up marrying crucibles huh?

I'm presently researching the connection of Buddhism and Christianism. It is also a very interesting topic, but I understand that religions have no place here.
I'd really like to learn about your updates. Interesting that I just mentioned the Chinese concept of male and female irons.

There's a very interesting theory about Qin Shi Huang's successful unification of early China into the Qin empire, so to speak.

It may be a bit lengthy, so I will approach it when I'm rested.
A pleasure to see you

Good night everybody.

Rivkin · 15th March 2005, 05:12 PM

Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one.

I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade.

btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_.

Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits.

Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies.
The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

Rick · 15th March 2005, 06:04 PM

Hi Antonio ,

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

Evolution from childhood .
My Father's navy sword always fascinated me .

My first sword was a toy Prince Valiant sword and shield set .
I think I spent most of my childhood playing 'war' with wooden swords or toy guns .

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

I 'blame'

Nordhoff and Hall , Joseph Conrad , and my antecedents for my interest in ethnographic weapons ; one (Kenneth French Anderson) was a missionary who disappeared into Mindanao in 1898 ; the other was Harrison Smith a botanist who used to write for the National Geographic about S.E. Asia in the early 1900's . Harrison finally wound up in Tahiti where he became close friends with Nordhoff and Hall . He is remembered in Tahiti by a botanical garden named for him there .

(edit) I must add that by my first marriage edged weapons had faded ; they were re-awakened by my second Wife on my 50th birthday !

She bought me a nice Del Tin two hander to get me back in touch with my inner child .

God bless her .

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.

> This is interesting as my Son is a glassblower by avocation and he is as Nature made him .

This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?

>It is said that the keris or kris are naga-esque symbols , the straight blade representing the snake sleeping or inactive and the waved form represents the awakened or active naga .

if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning .

>unsure about this

what is the meaning of the word kris?

>other than the name given this cultural artifact I would not know .

Tim Simmons · 15th March 2005, 06:24 PM

It all started from a general interest in anthropology in my late teens.I wanted more a collection of "tribal art" but the real stuff is too expensive and for some reason weapons are cheaper and more common.Tim

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

Montino,
Wow, it's past midnight here and this Forum is really creative.

Thank you for your input.
Although I pursued Aikido for 30 years I tried to relate to it more in a spiritual way. You know, the mind, the clarscient body, the unification of body and mind.
But I do keep disobeying as disobedience is the first input to creativity.
I do not think that African smiths hold the exclusivity to it. The Chinese have their own story and in fact it is interesting to find the five elements of Chinese cosmogony in the making of a blade:
fire
air
water
metal
wood
It is also interesting to read the article Clarity and Virtue by Carlos Morais José about the sacrifice of Mo Ie's wife and the feminine and masculine metals.
It is available here http://www.arscives.com/gallery/en/f...ge/default.htm
Best regards

15th March 2005, 03:57 PM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	how it started I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful. Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot. A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons. Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

15th March 2005, 06:04 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Hi Antonio , Question 1 What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy? Evolution from childhood . My Father's navy sword always fascinated me . My first sword was a toy Prince Valiant sword and shield set . I think I spent most of my childhood playing 'war' with wooden swords or toy guns . Question 2 Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason? a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated? b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction? I 'blame' Nordhoff and Hall , Joseph Conrad , and my antecedents for my interest in ethnographic weapons ; one (Kenneth French Anderson) was a missionary who disappeared into Mindanao in 1898 ; the other was Harrison Smith a botanist who used to write for the National Geographic about S.E. Asia in the early 1900's . Harrison finally wound up in Tahiti where he became close friends with Nordhoff and Hall . He is remembered in Tahiti by a botanical garden named for him there . (edit) I must add that by my first marriage edged weapons had faded ; they were re-awakened by my second Wife on my 50th birthday ! She bought me a nice Del Tin two hander to get me back in touch with my inner child . God bless her . Question 3 In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village. They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction. > This is interesting as my Son is a glassblower by avocation and he is as Nature made him . This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino. My question is divided into the following: does the snake preside over its shape? >It is said that the keris or kris are naga-esque symbols , the straight blade representing the snake sleeping or inactive and the waved form represents the awakened or active naga . if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning . >unsure about this what is the meaning of the word kris? >other than the name given this cultural artifact I would not know . Last edited by Rick; 15th March 2005 at 09:42 PM.

15th March 2005, 04:05 PM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you! Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic! There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs. Ann

15th March 2005, 05:12 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one. I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade. btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_. Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits. Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies. The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

15th March 2005, 06:24 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	It all started from a general interest in anthropology in my late teens.I wanted more a collection of "tribal art" but the real stuff is too expensive and for some reason weapons are cheaper and more common.Tim