A sociological and anthropological question

wolviex · 15th March 2005, 03:40 PM

Antonio:
Let me answer to your first and second question. In my case, I began interest with weapons just when I started to work in Museum. Earlier I was focused on much different, other historical things. With knowledge there came interest. You know, when you are able to see more, to answer questions, solve someone's "science" problems - then you realize the knowledge is weapon itself, and it began to satisfy you.

Of course first of all I should be interest in my country's armament and history. It's closest to me, and when someone ask you about it, especially from aboard, then you realize how much there is still to discover, and that this is something you can really be proud. This proud and inclination to knowledge are something that still turn you on. But - very often this closest armament seems to be very ordinary to you. Then I like to take a look at something more exotic. I know very a little about Persian, Indian, or Indonesian weapons, but I like them very much, bacause there are different. This difference is a treasure to me, is something unknown, like from the other World - it's somehow a mistery - and it's attractive (in spite for someone's else is ordinary)

Just few words from a thought

Best regards

Montino Bourbon · 15th March 2005, 03:57 PM

I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful.

Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot.

A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons.

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

Ann Feuerbach · 15th March 2005, 04:05 PM

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann Feuerbach

Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you!
Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic!
There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs.
Ann

Hi Ann,

Nice to see you online. Feel free to email me.
I know I have your CD somewhere inside the original envelope, but the fact is that there are many things still to be unpacked as I moved in September or October and the pace of work has not let me get everything back to order.
Kindly remind me on the book's premises. You can email me from here

You had a boy friend but you ended up marrying crucibles huh?

I'm presently researching the connection of Buddhism and Christianism. It is also a very interesting topic, but I understand that religions have no place here.
I'd really like to learn about your updates. Interesting that I just mentioned the Chinese concept of male and female irons.

There's a very interesting theory about Qin Shi Huang's successful unification of early China into the Qin empire, so to speak.

It may be a bit lengthy, so I will approach it when I'm rested.
A pleasure to see you

Good night everybody.

Rivkin · 15th March 2005, 05:12 PM

Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one.

I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade.

btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_.

Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits.

Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies.
The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

Rick · 15th March 2005, 06:04 PM

Hi Antonio ,

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

Evolution from childhood .
My Father's navy sword always fascinated me .

My first sword was a toy Prince Valiant sword and shield set .
I think I spent most of my childhood playing 'war' with wooden swords or toy guns .

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

I 'blame'

Nordhoff and Hall , Joseph Conrad , and my antecedents for my interest in ethnographic weapons ; one (Kenneth French Anderson) was a missionary who disappeared into Mindanao in 1898 ; the other was Harrison Smith a botanist who used to write for the National Geographic about S.E. Asia in the early 1900's . Harrison finally wound up in Tahiti where he became close friends with Nordhoff and Hall . He is remembered in Tahiti by a botanical garden named for him there .

(edit) I must add that by my first marriage edged weapons had faded ; they were re-awakened by my second Wife on my 50th birthday !

She bought me a nice Del Tin two hander to get me back in touch with my inner child .

God bless her .

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.

> This is interesting as my Son is a glassblower by avocation and he is as Nature made him .

This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

does the snake preside over its shape?

>It is said that the keris or kris are naga-esque symbols , the straight blade representing the snake sleeping or inactive and the waved form represents the awakened or active naga .

if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning .

>unsure about this

what is the meaning of the word kris?

>other than the name given this cultural artifact I would not know .

Tim Simmons · 15th March 2005, 06:24 PM

It all started from a general interest in anthropology in my late teens.I wanted more a collection of "tribal art" but the real stuff is too expensive and for some reason weapons are cheaper and more common.Tim

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

Montino,
Wow, it's past midnight here and this Forum is really creative.

Thank you for your input.
Although I pursued Aikido for 30 years I tried to relate to it more in a spiritual way. You know, the mind, the clarscient body, the unification of body and mind.
But I do keep disobeying as disobedience is the first input to creativity.
I do not think that African smiths hold the exclusivity to it. The Chinese have their own story and in fact it is interesting to find the five elements of Chinese cosmogony in the making of a blade:
fire
air
water
metal
wood
It is also interesting to read the article Clarity and Virtue by Carlos Morais José about the sacrifice of Mo Ie's wife and the feminine and masculine metals.
It is available here http://www.arscives.com/gallery/en/f...ge/default.htm
Best regards

Antonio Cejunior · 15th March 2005, 04:10 PM

Thank you Wolviex.
So we are colleagues. I was a Museum director for 20 years and kept a link by now being cultural consultant since 1998.

In today's globalized world of information it is interesting that we still consider exotic things those that do not pertain to our specific culture or to the collection of cultures we became familiar with, thus assimilated it.

Regards

Bill · 15th March 2005, 04:46 PM

Hi Antonio, 1. Ethnography/Anthropology, from a very novice aspect without education in either. 2. Married to a Filipina. 3. Love to know the answer to this. The word Campilan is recorded by Pigafetta to describe a cutlass from Cebu, from a dialect that now has only a little in common with Cebuano; but it seems to have stuck as to describe a sword from Mindanao. Could "creese" have been simular, European translation from one dialect that became universal for Europeans to communicate with different groups. Personally I think the wavy blade developed from function rather than ritual or magical reasons. Here is some wild speculations. The cutting abilities of a wavy blade was good for removing heads. Perhaps the wavy blade was introduced from Indian or Arabs & adapted for function. Perhaps the Minangkabau had some role. Did they learn thier smith & mining from India or Sri Lanka? They appear to be one of the many "waves" that spread through region. As far as the "Moro" kris is concerned, they may have well had some influence as they had settlements in both Brunei & Celebes. Upon the arrival of the Europeans, Brunei seems to have been well armed, notable populations of both Chinese & Bugis & dominated most of the PI; at least untill the Spanish attacked them. Pure speculation but I believe the Bugis played a large roll with both the Keris & Kris but if they did, that role seems to have been lost. Ritual & supernatural aspects of the weapon seem more likely to have been processed in, following function, unpopular to say that, but my opinion.

15th March 2005, 03:57 PM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	how it started I imagine that many men experienced playing with swords, wood or otherwise; I must have started at 6 years of age, I grew up in Italy and still remember wanting and then getting as a gift a 'corrazza', or armor, a play set of course, with a breasplate, helmet, and saber. In those days (1948) in Italy they were made of real metal, and the whole set was very beautiful. Around age 14 I saw the movie "The 7 samurai" and was instantly taken by Japanese fencing. It wasn't until I was 18 years old and a senior in High school in New York City that I got a chance to study Kendo. I also got my first Japanese sword at that time, and practiced with it quite a lot. A few years ago I became interested in kerises, and that was partly because of the artistic side and partly because of the 'magic' aspect of these fascinating weapons. Perhaps you know that Africa is not the only place where blacksmiths are considered 'magical'; I have heard that in Europe, the blacksmith was the only person who, to swear an oath, was not compelled to do it on a bible; he could swear on his anvil. Even though the blacksmith had a touch of the 'diabolical' to be able to work iron, nobody accused him of witchcraft; no blacksmith, no tools, and no weapons! so the religious authorities turned a blind eye to blacksmiths, so it is said.

15th March 2005, 06:04 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Antonio , Question 1 What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy? Evolution from childhood . My Father's navy sword always fascinated me . My first sword was a toy Prince Valiant sword and shield set . I think I spent most of my childhood playing 'war' with wooden swords or toy guns . Question 2 Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason? a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated? b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction? I 'blame' Nordhoff and Hall , Joseph Conrad , and my antecedents for my interest in ethnographic weapons ; one (Kenneth French Anderson) was a missionary who disappeared into Mindanao in 1898 ; the other was Harrison Smith a botanist who used to write for the National Geographic about S.E. Asia in the early 1900's . Harrison finally wound up in Tahiti where he became close friends with Nordhoff and Hall . He is remembered in Tahiti by a botanical garden named for him there . (edit) I must add that by my first marriage edged weapons had faded ; they were re-awakened by my second Wife on my 50th birthday ! She bought me a nice Del Tin two hander to get me back in touch with my inner child . God bless her . Question 3 In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village. They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction. > This is interesting as my Son is a glassblower by avocation and he is as Nature made him . This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino. My question is divided into the following: does the snake preside over its shape? >It is said that the keris or kris are naga-esque symbols , the straight blade representing the snake sleeping or inactive and the waved form represents the awakened or active naga . if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning . >unsure about this what is the meaning of the word kris? >other than the name given this cultural artifact I would not know . Last edited by Rick; 15th March 2005 at 09:42 PM.

15th March 2005, 03:40 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Antonio: Let me answer to your first and second question. In my case, I began interest with weapons just when I started to work in Museum. Earlier I was focused on much different, other historical things. With knowledge there came interest. You know, when you are able to see more, to answer questions, solve someone's "science" problems - then you realize the knowledge is weapon itself, and it began to satisfy you. Of course first of all I should be interest in my country's armament and history. It's closest to me, and when someone ask you about it, especially from aboard, then you realize how much there is still to discover, and that this is something you can really be proud. This proud and inclination to knowledge are something that still turn you on. But - very often this closest armament seems to be very ordinary to you. Then I like to take a look at something more exotic. I know very a little about Persian, Indian, or Indonesian weapons, but I like them very much, bacause there are different. This difference is a treasure to me, is something unknown, like from the other World - it's somehow a mistery - and it's attractive (in spite for someone's else is ordinary) Just few words from a thought Best regards

15th March 2005, 04:05 PM	#3
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hello, Long time since we wrote! I have not forgot about you! Here's a different viewpoint: got started in blades because I had a boyfriend interested in knives and swords...basically boys like blades, I like boys, I learn about blades. (sorry any feminists out there, if there are any). I got the crucible steel remains as a "glass working conservation problem". I realized they were crucible steel and who could NOT be interested in studing crucible Damascus steel! What a amazing PhD research topic! There is a whole newish academic field of ethnoarchaeometallurgy, (studying the social/cultual aspects of ancient metallurgy). I will be looking into this now for the book. I have some info, in Islamic writing they refere to male (hard) and female (soft) iron. You combine the two to make crucible steel. There are a few good movies on African metallurgy and beliefs. Ann

15th March 2005, 05:12 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, my reply will be probably the most psychotic one. I've realised that I like swords during the weapons qualification. I was holding a gun and it was oily, clearly mass produced cheapy. Then flash and bang. And then you don't even see what you hit, because 200 yards is too far away. I like sniper rifles, and I enjoy seeing the results of my shot, but still it's not the same as swinging a custom made blade. btw I don't know if I like swords. Sometimes it's just like the blade is talking to you, like you feel a connection, like it wants to _serve_. Concerning the family connection, yes, I did play with my grandfather's trench knife. Not a lot, cause my older brother got a scar from it, so it's kind of became off-limits. Since my mother's father was a megrelian Prince, I naturally always wanted a kindjal. So very soon I had a gazillion of them (since it was a good time to buy them). Recently I quietly sold nearly all of them to sponsor my other hobbies. The problem is that kindjals I really, really like are extremely rare - I basically like mechanical damascus.

15th March 2005, 06:24 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	It all started from a general interest in anthropology in my late teens.I wanted more a collection of "tribal art" but the real stuff is too expensive and for some reason weapons are cheaper and more common.Tim

15th March 2005, 04:10 PM	#9
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Thank you Wolviex. So we are colleagues. I was a Museum director for 20 years and kept a link by now being cultural consultant since 1998. In today's globalized world of information it is interesting that we still consider exotic things those that do not pertain to our specific culture or to the collection of cultures we became familiar with, thus assimilated it. Regards

15th March 2005, 04:46 PM	#10
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Hi Antonio, 1. Ethnography/Anthropology, from a very novice aspect without education in either. 2. Married to a Filipina. 3. Love to know the answer to this. The word Campilan is recorded by Pigafetta to describe a cutlass from Cebu, from a dialect that now has only a little in common with Cebuano; but it seems to have stuck as to describe a sword from Mindanao. Could "creese" have been simular, European translation from one dialect that became universal for Europeans to communicate with different groups. Personally I think the wavy blade developed from function rather than ritual or magical reasons. Here is some wild speculations. The cutting abilities of a wavy blade was good for removing heads. Perhaps the wavy blade was introduced from Indian or Arabs & adapted for function. Perhaps the Minangkabau had some role. Did they learn thier smith & mining from India or Sri Lanka? They appear to be one of the many "waves" that spread through region. As far as the "Moro" kris is concerned, they may have well had some influence as they had settlements in both Brunei & Celebes. Upon the arrival of the Europeans, Brunei seems to have been well armed, notable populations of both Chinese & Bugis & dominated most of the PI; at least untill the Spanish attacked them. Pure speculation but I believe the Bugis played a large roll with both the Keris & Kris but if they did, that role seems to have been lost. Ritual & supernatural aspects of the weapon seem more likely to have been processed in, following function, unpopular to say that, but my opinion.