Scottish Dirk from Anne

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2007, 10:00 PM

Amazing set there Kronckew! The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!

OK OK I know, a guy could get kilt for cracks like that!! Just kidding.
Usually I dont get that goofy unless I've had a respectable bit of Drambuie,as in the incident several years ago that led to the unfortunate tulwar waving incident. This event took out the ceiling fan in my den!

Seriously though, I agree with David on the size of the sgian dubh, as most of these were 3-4 " , but later examples, who knows. The antler hilted knife really is attractive, and unusual. It was quite common to utilize broken basket hilt blades to fashion many of these, and these items together comprise the 'gralloch' set for hunting use in butchering and skinning.

Its great to see Scottish weapons posted, they dont come up too often here, although they indeed are within the ethnographic scope.

I always thought the spelling on these was interesting, Dubh = black or dark.
When working on my family geneology I discovered that the correct Gaelic spelling of my name was MacDhubghaill. I decided to leave it like it is obviously....people have enough trouble pronouncing it as it is!!

All best regards,
Jim

Lew · 7th November 2007, 10:37 PM

Bill

That is a sweet little knife. It probably is a companion knife to a larger hunting sword or half of a trousse set of eating utensils?

Congrats

Lew

t_c · 8th November 2007, 06:19 AM

That's a nice little blade.
I have heard that skean dubh were named so due to the fact that they were a "boot" knife and meant for a stab in the back vs. what one might regard as a fair fight, hence the "dark" connotation, but the ones I have seen (modern pieces) are usually made with a black or dark wood handle which makes me wonder. Anyone know the meaning or history behind the name?

Rand:
I believe "shear steel" implies that it was forged from an old pair of shears, but I'm not sure on this.

Pukka Bundook · 8th November 2007, 01:42 PM

Nice little useful knife Bill.

I believe the "black knife was named so, because of the colour of the hilt,...normally black wood. Nothing to say antler is wrong though!

Skian dubh was I think a small utility knife, that would be used for eating, gralloching your deer, or whatever, and that in later years was worn for display in top of the stocking (sock!.)

I read somewhere that originally they were often carried inside the waiscoat.

If you wish to duplicate this nice aged antler colour, leather dye in medium or dark brown will do a very fair job.

TC,
Shear steel is I believe a type of cast steel, much used for cutlery and saws.

Richard.

David · 8th November 2007, 01:59 PM

Lemmy, i am surprised that no one has commented yet on your sgian dubh. Really beautiful job. thanks for showing it.

What are it's demensions?

spiral · 8th November 2007, 02:24 PM

Its a lovely old piece Bill...

Fellows, Shear steel is steel made from carbonised iron bars that were then sheared in half & forge welded together. It was the traditional steel in for British swords & knives before cast steel was invented.{it was still used for some select knives by a couple of makers makers up untill early 20th century.}

So essentialy it a European damascus steel , that was never designed to be etched. It was forge welded to get the desired qualitys, then highly polished.If the pattern showed it was regarded as poor workmanship.

If the rods were cut & folded twice its "double shear steel." That was usualy used for butchers & abatoir knives.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2007, 06:39 PM

Excellent explanation on the shear steel Spiral! I was wondering more on that as it was mentioned, and yours was exactly the kind of info I was hoping for.
This definitely eliminates my visual of using old scissor blades!

I reviewing the thread I must agree with David, Lemmy's sgian dubh is indeed a beautiful example!!! These intriguing knives are definitely now on my Christmas list!

The 'dhub' in the term as noted denotes black or dark, and has more to do with the term dark in the 'hidden' connotation as 'in darkness'. These small daggers were apparantly often worn near the pit of the arm in a small sheath, and as a mark of good faith were typically moved to the stocking in plain view when in good company. Eventually during the 'Romantic Period' of Victorian times, the sgian dubh became a standard element of Scottish regalia worn in the stocking.

It is true that the extremely dark bogwood or other dark wood was often used in the hilts of these, and these were mostly for dress or more formal wear. The antlers or lighter hilts I understand were considered more for utility or day wear.

While on the topic of wood used for Scottish hilts, I am curious whether the 'dudgeon' wood that became descriptive in reference to a particular type of Scottish dagger or knife might have also found use in these. The different terms for these woods is puzzling, and I believe boxwood is another term for the dudgeon.

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 9th November 2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!

Jim

I don't know why Jim, but every time you post you fire up a memory that keeps me up until I follow it through??? Must be that free association thing.

Your observation above may not be as far fetched as you think! Rev J. A. Wylie in his History of the Scottish Nation London 1886 devotes chapter 20 in Volume I to "The Cradle of the Scots in Scythia". As you know it is the descendants of the Scythians that are the shashkaophiles (if that is a word).
A few quotes of Wylie's such as "Almost all ancient testimony points to Scythia as the original cradle of the Scottish race." He goes on to explain that both the names Scots and Scyths signify the the same thing namely an archer or bowman.
Further... "King Alfred, in his translation of Bede, and other writers of that time, use Scytisk for Scottish, so that Scyt and Scot were synonymous. Several of the classic writers do the same thing, making use of Scythia and Scotia and Scyth and Scot alternatively. The Irish writers uniformly say that the Scots were Scythians... "
I have absolutely no idea if his theorys still hold water, and I doubt that this is usefull in any way, but, At least now I can go to bed

All the Best
Jeff

kronckew · 9th November 2007, 11:07 AM

the celts, of which the scots (and maybe scythians) were members, had a broad range from the steppes thru to ireland and on south to iberia, galetia in southern poland, 'gaul' in france and galetia in northern spain were all celtic. in some respects more advanced than their roman neighbors who feared them. they were not 'civilised' in the original meaning , they did not live in cities, 'civis', but had a village and tribal based confederation. the romans proceeded to demolish that, and the results were written down by the romans, not the celts, so our knowledge of them is reduced.

my maternal grandmother was an austrian galetian from somewhere between cracow and vienna. that area is one of the most fought over areas of the world, and the term 'ethnic cleansing' should have originated there. the scythians were likely celts, one of the recent 'king arthur' films used scythian archers as auxilliary troops stationed at hadrians wall as the arthurian knights and woad painted celts as their allies against the saxon (sax meaning 'sword', the 'angles' were spearmen - they eventually mingled into the anglo-saxons) invaders as rome pulled back the legions. might be closer to tha mark than we think

(i'm looking forward to the latest 'last legion' flick when i can get to see it.)

8th November 2007, 01:42 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Black Knife Nice little useful knife Bill. I believe the "black knife was named so, because of the colour of the hilt,...normally black wood. Nothing to say antler is wrong though! Skian dubh was I think a small utility knife, that would be used for eating, gralloching your deer, or whatever, and that in later years was worn for display in top of the stocking (sock!.) I read somewhere that originally they were often carried inside the waiscoat. If you wish to duplicate this nice aged antler colour, leather dye in medium or dark brown will do a very fair job. TC, Shear steel is I believe a type of cast steel, much used for cutlery and saws. Richard.

7th November 2007, 10:00 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	Amazing set there Kronckew! The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!! OK OK I know, a guy could get kilt for cracks like that!! Just kidding. Usually I dont get that goofy unless I've had a respectable bit of Drambuie,as in the incident several years ago that led to the unfortunate tulwar waving incident. This event took out the ceiling fan in my den! Seriously though, I agree with David on the size of the sgian dubh, as most of these were 3-4 " , but later examples, who knows. The antler hilted knife really is attractive, and unusual. It was quite common to utilize broken basket hilt blades to fashion many of these, and these items together comprise the 'gralloch' set for hunting use in butchering and skinning. Its great to see Scottish weapons posted, they dont come up too often here, although they indeed are within the ethnographic scope. I always thought the spelling on these was interesting, Dubh = black or dark. When working on my family geneology I discovered that the correct Gaelic spelling of my name was MacDhubghaill. I decided to leave it like it is obviously....people have enough trouble pronouncing it as it is!! All best regards, Jim

7th November 2007, 10:37 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bill That is a sweet little knife. It probably is a companion knife to a larger hunting sword or half of a trousse set of eating utensils? Congrats Lew

8th November 2007, 06:19 AM	#3
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	That's a nice little blade. I have heard that skean dubh were named so due to the fact that they were a "boot" knife and meant for a stab in the back vs. what one might regard as a fair fight, hence the "dark" connotation, but the ones I have seen (modern pieces) are usually made with a black or dark wood handle which makes me wonder. Anyone know the meaning or history behind the name? Rand: I believe "shear steel" implies that it was forged from an old pair of shears, but I'm not sure on this.

8th November 2007, 01:59 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,238	Lemmy, i am surprised that no one has commented yet on your sgian dubh. Really beautiful job. thanks for showing it. What are it's demensions?

8th November 2007, 02:24 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Its a lovely old piece Bill... Fellows, Shear steel is steel made from carbonised iron bars that were then sheared in half & forge welded together. It was the traditional steel in for British swords & knives before cast steel was invented.{it was still used for some select knives by a couple of makers makers up untill early 20th century.} So essentialy it a European damascus steel , that was never designed to be etched. It was forge welded to get the desired qualitys, then highly polished.If the pattern showed it was regarded as poor workmanship. If the rods were cut & folded twice its "double shear steel." That was usualy used for butchers & abatoir knives. Spiral

8th November 2007, 06:39 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,597	Excellent explanation on the shear steel Spiral! I was wondering more on that as it was mentioned, and yours was exactly the kind of info I was hoping for. This definitely eliminates my visual of using old scissor blades! I reviewing the thread I must agree with David, Lemmy's sgian dubh is indeed a beautiful example!!! These intriguing knives are definitely now on my Christmas list! The 'dhub' in the term as noted denotes black or dark, and has more to do with the term dark in the 'hidden' connotation as 'in darkness'. These small daggers were apparantly often worn near the pit of the arm in a small sheath, and as a mark of good faith were typically moved to the stocking in plain view when in good company. Eventually during the 'Romantic Period' of Victorian times, the sgian dubh became a standard element of Scottish regalia worn in the stocking. It is true that the extremely dark bogwood or other dark wood was often used in the hilts of these, and these were mostly for dress or more formal wear. The antlers or lighter hilts I understand were considered more for utility or day wear. While on the topic of wood used for Scottish hilts, I am curious whether the 'dudgeon' wood that became descriptive in reference to a particular type of Scottish dagger or knife might have also found use in these. The different terms for these woods is puzzling, and I believe boxwood is another term for the dudgeon. Best regards, Jim

9th November 2007, 11:07 AM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,250	the celts, of which the scots (and maybe scythians) were members, had a broad range from the steppes thru to ireland and on south to iberia, galetia in southern poland, 'gaul' in france and galetia in northern spain were all celtic. in some respects more advanced than their roman neighbors who feared them. they were not 'civilised' in the original meaning , they did not live in cities, 'civis', but had a village and tribal based confederation. the romans proceeded to demolish that, and the results were written down by the romans, not the celts, so our knowledge of them is reduced. my maternal grandmother was an austrian galetian from somewhere between cracow and vienna. that area is one of the most fought over areas of the world, and the term 'ethnic cleansing' should have originated there. the scythians were likely celts, one of the recent 'king arthur' films used scythian archers as auxilliary troops stationed at hadrians wall as the arthurian knights and woad painted celts as their allies against the saxon (sax meaning 'sword', the 'angles' were spearmen - they eventually mingled into the anglo-saxons) invaders as rome pulled back the legions. might be closer to tha mark than we think (i'm looking forward to the latest 'last legion' flick when i can get to see it.)