Greneng

A. G. Maisey · 7th November 2007, 07:06 AM

Just to clarify a point David, you are talking in terms of the original reason for the inclusion of the greneng in keris blade design?
That is, the possible reason it may have originated many hundreds of years ago.

You are not inviting speculation on the later development of the greneng and its esoteric, talismanic, arcane or philosophical interpretations?

Am I correct in this assumption?

drdavid · 7th November 2007, 08:23 PM

Alan, you are correct I am talking about the original purpose. If we take the 'form follows function' approach there should be a reason it is like it is. Thanks for clarifying my question
cheers
David

Gavin Nugent · 7th November 2007, 09:58 PM

Hi, all that I have learnt of the Kris is relatively new to me from study and an elderly friend who spent a very long time in and out of Bali in the 70's and 80's with the people who inhabited a 10th century water temple far removed from the tourist Mecca we all know of today. From all that I have read and learnt first had from those who have travelled there is that it is entirely form before funtion with regards to these knives.
From all that I can gather from my talks with Max, the Kris and every part of it is all a spiritual connotation, much like the importance of the Gajah in their culture which it also found on Kris knives as are other "items" that are held with great importance like the Naga and many others I have seen on old blades.
I have always said to Max how much the Genang side of a Kris reminds me of the Indonesian Archipelago and I am only surmising that Genang being a city in this Island chain is represented on the blade, it may be how it all came about, or this ideal of mine may go back further and hence this is how the city received it's name. If anyone can touch on the origins of the city of Genang, here may be the answers....

Hold your Kris knives up against the map in the link below and tell me what you think? I beleive the line between Ganja and the main blade of the Kris represents the break between the major islands which would put Genang in the correct position on the blade.
http://www.traveljournals.net/explor...51/genang.html

regards

Gavin

A. G. Maisey · 7th November 2007, 10:07 PM

Interesting!

Gavin Nugent · 7th November 2007, 10:12 PM

Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate

Gav

PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts

t_c · 8th November 2007, 07:06 AM

I agree with you DrD about #1 and #2. If you will indulge a little speculation: judging from how the keris is held, I would surmise that the intention was to simply keep the hand from slipping down the blade on a thrust if one's grip slipped. I think it would feel better to put solid pressure on the hand there than at the fingers. It would also make sense that it would protect the users hand when parring an opponents weapon with the blade (assuming this was a strategy with a keris), the decoration acting as a "sword catcher" in the sense that a blade couldn't skip or slide past that area and onto the forearm, but I can't see getting enough leverage out of it to disarm or catch a blade though.

Tom

PenangsangII · 9th November 2007, 11:10 AM

I would say no. 3 - the signature of an empu that can be translated these days as marketing ploy. I am quite sceptical about sword catcher theory as according to Malay keris fighting tradition, keris is not to be parried against another keris or other edged weapon for that matter.

7th November 2007, 09:58 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	View of a novice, just one angle Hi, all that I have learnt of the Kris is relatively new to me from study and an elderly friend who spent a very long time in and out of Bali in the 70's and 80's with the people who inhabited a 10th century water temple far removed from the tourist Mecca we all know of today. From all that I have read and learnt first had from those who have travelled there is that it is entirely form before funtion with regards to these knives. From all that I can gather from my talks with Max, the Kris and every part of it is all a spiritual connotation, much like the importance of the Gajah in their culture which it also found on Kris knives as are other "items" that are held with great importance like the Naga and many others I have seen on old blades. I have always said to Max how much the Genang side of a Kris reminds me of the Indonesian Archipelago and I am only surmising that Genang being a city in this Island chain is represented on the blade, it may be how it all came about, or this ideal of mine may go back further and hence this is how the city received it's name. If anyone can touch on the origins of the city of Genang, here may be the answers.... Hold your Kris knives up against the map in the link below and tell me what you think? I beleive the line between Ganja and the main blade of the Kris represents the break between the major islands which would put Genang in the correct position on the blade. http://www.traveljournals.net/explor...51/genang.html regards Gavin Last edited by freebooter; 7th November 2007 at 10:17 PM.

7th November 2007, 10:12 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate Gav PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts Last edited by freebooter; 8th November 2007 at 04:46 AM.

7th November 2007, 07:06 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Just to clarify a point David, you are talking in terms of the original reason for the inclusion of the greneng in keris blade design? That is, the possible reason it may have originated many hundreds of years ago. You are not inviting speculation on the later development of the greneng and its esoteric, talismanic, arcane or philosophical interpretations? Am I correct in this assumption?

7th November 2007, 08:23 PM	#2
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Alan, you are correct I am talking about the original purpose. If we take the 'form follows function' approach there should be a reason it is like it is. Thanks for clarifying my question cheers David

7th November 2007, 10:07 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	Interesting!

8th November 2007, 07:06 AM	#6
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	I agree with you DrD about #1 and #2. If you will indulge a little speculation: judging from how the keris is held, I would surmise that the intention was to simply keep the hand from slipping down the blade on a thrust if one's grip slipped. I think it would feel better to put solid pressure on the hand there than at the fingers. It would also make sense that it would protect the users hand when parring an opponents weapon with the blade (assuming this was a strategy with a keris), the decoration acting as a "sword catcher" in the sense that a blade couldn't skip or slide past that area and onto the forearm, but I can't see getting enough leverage out of it to disarm or catch a blade though. Tom

9th November 2007, 11:10 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I would say no. 3 - the signature of an empu that can be translated these days as marketing ploy. I am quite sceptical about sword catcher theory as according to Malay keris fighting tradition, keris is not to be parried against another keris or other edged weapon for that matter.