A Unique Kattar?

Tomb22 · 12th October 2007, 01:42 AM

Ok, now I know that the posts go to the end, unless there is something else I could have done to put it next to the post I was responding too. Sorry, to waste your time with these kind of logistics things.

In the pictures that I am uploading with this post, I think that you can see the rivet situation a little better. It does seem that the thought of the blade and hilt not being born together might bear weight. It does look like the koftgari does not take the rivet into consideration. Good observation RSWORD. These new pictures might support that thought.

Concerning the pin holes (piercings). I still can't seem to get a very good picture of them, will keep trying. However, in the pictures of Ward's cool blade, you can see the pin holes really well. The ones in my hilt are very similar and very small, all in the dark areas between the koftgari. They just don't seem big enough to me to be used to attach anything. It would have to be the size of a piece of fine string or like very thin fishing line.

So, under the assumption that these two parts were not "born together," would that lend credence to the comments from the Gatka site that indicated riveted blades were 16th - 17th century and were generally European?

If you look at the hilt where the rivets are, if there had been another blade, it appears like it too would have been riveted?? The Jamadhar's that I have seen that were one piece with the blade at the hilt almost as wide as the hilt, doesn't seem to fit into this picture somehow??

And again, not challenging anyone, just thinking out loud - if it were a 2nd blade, and the first one was also riveted, would there be any other indication?
Would there be more disturbed or irregular metal. Were they good enough to pop the old rivets out and put in new ones without leaving any evidence? As you know I have no real experience and knowledge except the great things I am learning here so feel free to "correct" my thoughts.

In a previous post, in talking about the two "Cobra Swords," the Oriental Arms folks indicated their blades which are similar to this one, are an "Indian Straight blade bulged at the ricasso."

Whew, now I see part of the enjoyment you gentlemen get from this. Thinking about all the various possibilities and then about "What does that mean?" sort of boggles the mind - great fun!
Thanks again for all of the interest and comments. Your thoughts are keeping me going, looking for more answers.

Kind regards,
Tom

Tomb22 · 12th October 2007, 01:57 AM

Hmm, those came out better than I thought. As you can see in the part of the hilt that is riveted. There are pin holes there too. Also, it appears that piece might have been "soldered" or something to attach to the curved bottom transverse piece where the 2 protective bars are attached. If you notice there is a touch of separation at the edges.

Here are some more pictures. I hope that they are helpful to you. If you would like something more specific - please let me know and I will try and accomodate you. In this set, you can see the other side of the blade where the Tiger has its prey in its teeth. I will do one more set of a few blade pictures. As noted before, there doesn't seem to be an wootz on this blade.

Kind regards.
Tom

Tomb22 · 12th October 2007, 02:02 AM

Here are the few blade pictures.
Regards
Tom

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 04:51 PM

Here is a sword with the 'cobra' form of blade.

ward · 14th October 2007, 05:24 PM

here is another example of pierced work

rand · 14th October 2007, 06:00 PM

Observations of Toms Jamadhar:

The two flanges that extend from the handle of the jamadhar holding the blade between them attached with a riveting technique apear to have pierce work as do the sides of the handle. Looks as is it is mostly filled with an accumulation of dust, dirt and small debris.

The application of the gold overlay is a technique called koftgari where the metal is first cross hatched with a fine pointed tool called a "cherma", then overlaid with a gold wire that is tapped in place with a small hammer and punch, then it is exposed to a moderate heat after which it is polished with an agate rubber "Mohari" and cleaned with lime juice.

The design on the handle has a circular vegetal motif with circular shaped flowers with all leafs attached to a vine, the design on the blade has an open cartouche shape with open fan shaped flowers with some leafs seperate. Both have similar quality of koftgari work.

The quality of the chiseled line on the tiger, deer

The rivets are still hard to study from the photo's, but the appear to stand in higher relief than adjacent metal.

Summing up the above it suggests one craftman for the work on blade and one for the handle. This would be inline with most arms as there would have been a miner for ore, smelter, forger, blade maker, blade polisher, hilt maker, hilt and or blade art fabricater, scabbard maker.

Unable to find my reference as to defintion of koftgari but belive it to mean, " the beating of gold (koft)by a craftsman(gari)"

The above is only theory based on opinion and should be weighed against other viewpoints.

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 09:30 PM

Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine?
Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't.
Attached is a tabjore hilt.

ward · 14th October 2007, 10:05 PM

that was a preety awful pic shows what happens when you do things in a hurry

rand · 14th October 2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine?
Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't.
Attached is a tabjore hilt.

Hey Jens,

The work on the hilt of Toms jamadhar is more inline with craftsmanship earlier than the blade, both in execution and design. My gut feeling is the blade is 19th C. and the hilt 17-18th C.

Where as on Wards jamadhar the edges of the leaves are done the same, the center of the leaves are also hollowed the same, the decoration on leaves also matches on the hilt and connecting flanges

rand

12th October 2007, 01:42 AM	#1
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Ok, now I know that the posts go to the end, unless there is something else I could have done to put it next to the post I was responding too. Sorry, to waste your time with these kind of logistics things. In the pictures that I am uploading with this post, I think that you can see the rivet situation a little better. It does seem that the thought of the blade and hilt not being born together might bear weight. It does look like the koftgari does not take the rivet into consideration. Good observation RSWORD. These new pictures might support that thought. Concerning the pin holes (piercings). I still can't seem to get a very good picture of them, will keep trying. However, in the pictures of Ward's cool blade, you can see the pin holes really well. The ones in my hilt are very similar and very small, all in the dark areas between the koftgari. They just don't seem big enough to me to be used to attach anything. It would have to be the size of a piece of fine string or like very thin fishing line. So, under the assumption that these two parts were not "born together," would that lend credence to the comments from the Gatka site that indicated riveted blades were 16th - 17th century and were generally European? If you look at the hilt where the rivets are, if there had been another blade, it appears like it too would have been riveted?? The Jamadhar's that I have seen that were one piece with the blade at the hilt almost as wide as the hilt, doesn't seem to fit into this picture somehow?? And again, not challenging anyone, just thinking out loud - if it were a 2nd blade, and the first one was also riveted, would there be any other indication? Would there be more disturbed or irregular metal. Were they good enough to pop the old rivets out and put in new ones without leaving any evidence? As you know I have no real experience and knowledge except the great things I am learning here so feel free to "correct" my thoughts. In a previous post, in talking about the two "Cobra Swords," the Oriental Arms folks indicated their blades which are similar to this one, are an "Indian Straight blade bulged at the ricasso." Whew, now I see part of the enjoyment you gentlemen get from this. Thinking about all the various possibilities and then about "What does that mean?" sort of boggles the mind - great fun! Thanks again for all of the interest and comments. Your thoughts are keeping me going, looking for more answers. Kind regards, Tom Attached Images

12th October 2007, 01:57 AM	#2
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Hmm, those came out better than I thought. As you can see in the part of the hilt that is riveted. There are pin holes there too. Also, it appears that piece might have been "soldered" or something to attach to the curved bottom transverse piece where the 2 protective bars are attached. If you notice there is a touch of separation at the edges. Here are some more pictures. I hope that they are helpful to you. If you would like something more specific - please let me know and I will try and accomodate you. In this set, you can see the other side of the blade where the Tiger has its prey in its teeth. I will do one more set of a few blade pictures. As noted before, there doesn't seem to be an wootz on this blade. Kind regards. Tom Attached Images

12th October 2007, 02:02 AM	#3
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Here are the few blade pictures. Regards Tom Attached Images

14th October 2007, 04:51 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is a sword with the 'cobra' form of blade. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 05:24 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here is another example of pierced work Attached Images

14th October 2007, 06:00 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Observations of toms Jamadhar Observations of Toms Jamadhar: The two flanges that extend from the handle of the jamadhar holding the blade between them attached with a riveting technique apear to have pierce work as do the sides of the handle. Looks as is it is mostly filled with an accumulation of dust, dirt and small debris. The application of the gold overlay is a technique called koftgari where the metal is first cross hatched with a fine pointed tool called a "cherma", then overlaid with a gold wire that is tapped in place with a small hammer and punch, then it is exposed to a moderate heat after which it is polished with an agate rubber "Mohari" and cleaned with lime juice. The design on the handle has a circular vegetal motif with circular shaped flowers with all leafs attached to a vine, the design on the blade has an open cartouche shape with open fan shaped flowers with some leafs seperate. Both have similar quality of koftgari work. The quality of the chiseled line on the tiger, deer The rivets are still hard to study from the photo's, but the appear to stand in higher relief than adjacent metal. Summing up the above it suggests one craftman for the work on blade and one for the handle. This would be inline with most arms as there would have been a miner for ore, smelter, forger, blade maker, blade polisher, hilt maker, hilt and or blade art fabricater, scabbard maker. Unable to find my reference as to defintion of koftgari but belive it to mean, " the beating of gold (koft)by a craftsman(gari)" The above is only theory based on opinion and should be weighed against other viewpoints. rand

14th October 2007, 09:30 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine? Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't. Attached is a tabjore hilt. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 10:05 PM	#8
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	that was a preety awful pic shows what happens when you do things in a hurry Attached Images