Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

katana · 7th October 2007, 05:13 PM

I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife.

The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target.

Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition .....

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 06:24 PM

Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me.

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2007, 07:19 PM

Hi Tim,
Great deductive reasoning there!! I'm right with ya! The idea of vestigial representation for the jingles in the crenallations makes a lot of sense and a more rudimentary example for 'field' use , cf. dress sword vs. combat sword.
Like you, throat cutting and such grim matters is the least enjoyable facet of consideration in examining the plausible function of this piece for me. I do agree with Katana in his observation that an edge on the inside curve would seem more functional for such purpose. The sharpened outer edge suggests use in a chopping fashion rather than a drawcut.

Returning to the size of this weapon again, it seems that in Asian regions the primary weapon was typically much as in many aboriginal areas, either the bow and arrow or spear. Edged weapons were typically secondary and used in close quarters melee. While not suggesting this piece would be in that category, it is simply a suggestion for consideration overall since we have examined so many aspects of the ceremonial /sacrificial potential due to similarity to ram dao. It would seem that ram dao, like the kora and other chopping type weapons, had combat counterparts, and like the kukri, could be used as a utilitarian implement as well. In discussions some time ago, as I mentioned concerning the Afghan lohar, the smaller size of these did not dismiss possible combative use especially in close quarters or as with Afghans in stealth attacks with easily concealed weapons. The British occupiers took a dim view of tribesmen carrying weapons.

Something else that we need to look at is the interesting symbols or characters deeply stamped in the blade. Do these coincide with others that might be found on examples from suggested regions, like the knife you included earlier? What might these represent?

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 07:31 PM

Jim. It is too light to chop. That is why a went with the African razor it is like a razor. The Nepalese Ram Dao link is too much of a match to think of Africa any more for me right now. It would make an excellent slashing secondary weapon. Held with the blade facing you I think it could do a serious unpleasantness to man or beast. Or the other way for that matters.

Battara · 7th October 2007, 09:34 PM

The only problem with the ram do connection is that the ram do or other sacrificial knife like that in Nepal has an eye that is the symbol of Durga, the consort of Shiva and it is her avatar in a sense that cuts the head off the animal. Without the eye, it is not "alive" with her presence.

If it is a sacrificial weapon, I would put it with India or somewhere else.

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2007, 10:44 PM

Hey Battara!! I was hoping you'd come in on this!

The symbolism of the eye is indeed key on these sacrificial weapons and thanks for adding the detail on Durga. What I'm wondering is if every ram dao was sacrificial, and how widely was the ram dao (realizing of course degree of variants) diffused?
Although as Tim notes, this item is too small for effective chopping, it is still of a size for close quarters slashing. Then if intended for such use, the question on the unusual crenallations arises again since that would suggest ceremonial use. Truly a conundrum!!

Tim Simmons · 8th October 2007, 08:21 AM

Elgood mentions the eye but includes pictures of sacrificial weapons without the eye. Perhaps the eye is not always a prerequisite?

Battara · 9th October 2007, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hey Battara!! I was hoping you'd come in on this!

The symbolism of the eye is indeed key on these sacrificial weapons and thanks for adding the detail on Durga. What I'm wondering is if every ram dao was sacrificial, and how widely was the ram dao (realizing of course degree of variants) diffused?

To my knowledge every ram do was sacrificial and has eye on both sides. Not every sacrificial Indian subcontinental knife is associated with the ram do however.

7th October 2007, 05:13 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife. The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target. Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition ..... Attached Images

7th October 2007, 06:24 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me.

7th October 2007, 07:19 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Hi Tim, Great deductive reasoning there!! I'm right with ya! The idea of vestigial representation for the jingles in the crenallations makes a lot of sense and a more rudimentary example for 'field' use , cf. dress sword vs. combat sword. Like you, throat cutting and such grim matters is the least enjoyable facet of consideration in examining the plausible function of this piece for me. I do agree with Katana in his observation that an edge on the inside curve would seem more functional for such purpose. The sharpened outer edge suggests use in a chopping fashion rather than a drawcut. Returning to the size of this weapon again, it seems that in Asian regions the primary weapon was typically much as in many aboriginal areas, either the bow and arrow or spear. Edged weapons were typically secondary and used in close quarters melee. While not suggesting this piece would be in that category, it is simply a suggestion for consideration overall since we have examined so many aspects of the ceremonial /sacrificial potential due to similarity to ram dao. It would seem that ram dao, like the kora and other chopping type weapons, had combat counterparts, and like the kukri, could be used as a utilitarian implement as well. In discussions some time ago, as I mentioned concerning the Afghan lohar, the smaller size of these did not dismiss possible combative use especially in close quarters or as with Afghans in stealth attacks with easily concealed weapons. The British occupiers took a dim view of tribesmen carrying weapons. Something else that we need to look at is the interesting symbols or characters deeply stamped in the blade. Do these coincide with others that might be found on examples from suggested regions, like the knife you included earlier? What might these represent?

7th October 2007, 07:31 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Jim. It is too light to chop. That is why a went with the African razor it is like a razor. The Nepalese Ram Dao link is too much of a match to think of Africa any more for me right now. It would make an excellent slashing secondary weapon. Held with the blade facing you I think it could do a serious unpleasantness to man or beast. Or the other way for that matters.

7th October 2007, 09:34 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,308	The only problem with the ram do connection is that the ram do or other sacrificial knife like that in Nepal has an eye that is the symbol of Durga, the consort of Shiva and it is her avatar in a sense that cuts the head off the animal. Without the eye, it is not "alive" with her presence. If it is a sacrificial weapon, I would put it with India or somewhere else.

7th October 2007, 10:44 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Hey Battara!! I was hoping you'd come in on this! The symbolism of the eye is indeed key on these sacrificial weapons and thanks for adding the detail on Durga. What I'm wondering is if every ram dao was sacrificial, and how widely was the ram dao (realizing of course degree of variants) diffused? Although as Tim notes, this item is too small for effective chopping, it is still of a size for close quarters slashing. Then if intended for such use, the question on the unusual crenallations arises again since that would suggest ceremonial use. Truly a conundrum!!

8th October 2007, 08:21 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Elgood mentions the eye but includes pictures of sacrificial weapons without the eye. Perhaps the eye is not always a prerequisite?