Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 09:46 PM

I think Ariel makes a good point that I honestly had not been considering, this item really is relatively small for something used as a sacrificial implement. Even the tulwar hilted koras of Bengal used in sacrificing doves are of good size and heft.
Perhaps this may indeed be a votive or ceremonial piece that is an interpretive example of the larger weapons actually used?
That brings to mind discussions some time ago of the Afghan 'lohar' and whether its rather diminutive size would disqualify it as a practical weapon. Also there were claims that these functioned as utilitarian ice choppers etc. and it was suggested that these were likely modern versions of the earlier examples that probably did serve as weapons. The more modern examples were basically interpretations that served recalling the traditional form much as smaller examples of other weapons such as miniature swords used as letter openers and the like.

Obviously I am not implying such a mundane course for this intriguing example, but would consider the possibilities of more votive use as being plausible due to the size.

Like Lewis Carroll......curiouser and curioser!!!

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2007, 10:19 PM

I am not sure that 9" of flexable tempered steel drawn across a throat is votive.

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 10:25 PM

Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!!

not votive!!!
Back to where we left off.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2007, 02:33 AM

Tim,
I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region.

Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts.

It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 03:18 PM

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation.
Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut

far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple.

I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-7-2002_pg4_16

katana · 7th October 2007, 05:13 PM

I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife.

The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target.

Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition .....

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 06:24 PM

Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me.

7th October 2007, 03:18 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation. Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple. I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-7-2002_pg4_16 Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th October 2007 at 03:44 PM.

7th October 2007, 05:13 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife. The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target. Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition ..... Attached Images

6th October 2007, 09:46 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I think Ariel makes a good point that I honestly had not been considering, this item really is relatively small for something used as a sacrificial implement. Even the tulwar hilted koras of Bengal used in sacrificing doves are of good size and heft. Perhaps this may indeed be a votive or ceremonial piece that is an interpretive example of the larger weapons actually used? That brings to mind discussions some time ago of the Afghan 'lohar' and whether its rather diminutive size would disqualify it as a practical weapon. Also there were claims that these functioned as utilitarian ice choppers etc. and it was suggested that these were likely modern versions of the earlier examples that probably did serve as weapons. The more modern examples were basically interpretations that served recalling the traditional form much as smaller examples of other weapons such as miniature swords used as letter openers and the like. Obviously I am not implying such a mundane course for this intriguing example, but would consider the possibilities of more votive use as being plausible due to the size. Like Lewis Carroll......curiouser and curioser!!!

6th October 2007, 10:19 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	I am not sure that 9" of flexable tempered steel drawn across a throat is votive.

6th October 2007, 10:25 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!! not votive!!! Back to where we left off. All the best, Jim

7th October 2007, 02:33 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Tim, I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region. Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts. It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.

7th October 2007, 06:24 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me.