Images of the Orient-Weapons included-XVI century

rand · 25th September 2007, 06:54 AM

Fernando,

It seems the influence of Europe, in this case Portugal is not illustrated enough currently to makes its effect fully understood. Am sure there are records of visits to Islamic countries and what was sold or given to the rulers there of also.

Just saw one reference of Portugal envoys,

"The Safavid period: Shah Esma@¿^l I (q.v.) showed an interest in the purchase of firearms as early as 907/1502, soon after his enthronement (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 9-10). Yet the Safavid army's failure to use artillery in the battle of Ùa@ldera@n (q.v.) in 920/1514 was largely responsible for its defeat. Shah Esma@¿^l reacted swiftly to remedy this and immediately following the battle appointed his wak^l, Solta@n-H®osayn, as tofang±^-ba@æ^, commander of the musketeers, putting him in charge of forming of a corps of tofang±^s (Bacque‚-Grammont, p. 165; Aubin, p. 118). The results were soon noticeable. The Portuguese envoys visiting Ka@æa@n in 1515-16 observed "forty musketeers bearing muskets of metal" among the welcoming party (Smith, p. 44). By 1517, Esma@¿^l's army is said to have included 8,000 musketeers, and Venetian reports from 1521 and 1522 speak of 12,000 and 15,000 to 20,000 arquebusiers (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 377, 405-6, 533, 545). No figures are available for Shah T®ahma@sb I's reign, yet it is clear that the musketeer corps continued to be active, frequently taking part in campaigns and in the defense of fortresses (¿AÚlama@ra@-ye ˆa@h T®ahma@sb, pp. 64, 78, 123, 157, 181, 193, 204-5, 272, 280, 297, 314, 329, 332, 335, 341, 357, 369, 376-77). By the mid-17th century, observers put the number of musketeers in the Safavid army at 8,000 to 10,000 (Tavernier, I, p. 659) to 12,000 men (Chardin, V, p. 305; Tavernier noted that in times of need, their number could rise to 50,000)."

(an article by Rudi Matthee about the history of firearms in Iran)

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2007, 04:21 PM

Two copies are up for sale at AbeBooks, but as few of us can read old Portuguese, the pictures Fernando have provided us with is far better than what we had before – nothing like this. The poor elephant is a beauty – in those days, elephants really had to work hard for a living

. I have had to change some of my believes, like the spear shown on plate XXXVII. I would

katana · 25th September 2007, 07:20 PM

Hi Fernando
great pictures....very interesting topic, thanks for posting

Regards David

fernando · 25th September 2007, 09:09 PM

Hi Rand
Here are some interesting references, written in english, with lots of action.
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...ect01to03.html
regards
fernando

fernando · 25th September 2007, 09:16 PM

Hi David
Glad you like it
Here are some more pictures, hoping the moderators don't get upset with such intensity.

fernando · 25th September 2007, 10:50 PM

In picture 71 and some others, the guy has got a keris, as also these are mentioned to be used by a couple races, in the additional texts.
Material worth to be posted in Keris Warung Kopi

ariel · 26th September 2007, 12:50 AM

Pics V, XVII and LIX show Indian blades of archaic forms. these are illustrated in the Rawson's book only as siluettes: likely the blades themselves were not available. But here they are, in action, witnessed by the contemporary traveller!
Fascinating!!!!!

fernando · 26th September 2007, 11:05 PM

Hi Jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Two copies are up for sale at AbeBooks, but as few of us can read old Portuguese, the pictures Fernando have provided us with is far better than what we had before – nothing like this. The poor elephant is a beauty – in those days, elephants really had to work hard for a living

. I have had to change some of my believes, like the spear shown on plate XXXVII. I would

Just curious. Which would be the missing words of your posting?!

fernando · 28th September 2007, 09:10 AM

It looks like i have managed,with help from a coleague, to reformat and transform all the images into three part PDF files. I tested the thing on my own mailbox ant they seem to be sendable. Each image size is 1020x768,which is already larger than the condensed ones in the book,although quite clear ... i don´t remember the real size of these folios, the book is at home and i am not there.
Somebody please "volunteer" to accept these pictures and give me an email adress, so that i can try if it works.
Thanks and regards.
fernando

Jens Nordlunde · 28th September 2007, 01:49 PM

Hi Fernando,

It should have said ’I would not have expected the spear type to be that old.’ Sorry.

You are very welcome to try me, you have my mail address.

Jens

fernando · 28th September 2007, 07:53 PM

More than one person made coments about the flowers in the paintings, as a potential track to identify the places and also its possible simbology in the arms decorations used in the period.
Herewith some thaughts and also parts translated from the book introduction, with (or without) references in the area.

No mention in the legends or in texts about flowers. The only mention is on image 17, where this book introducer compares this flower with vegetable ornamentation on images 4, 7, 9, 10 and 12.
The additional texts, basically used for confirmation (or some discrepancy) of the codice original author assumptions, is largely dedicated to the
way these Peoples usually dressed and secondly to the arms they used, apart from lateral contextual events.
Therefore flowers are used as landscape, and not necessarily belonging to Peoples lands in question ( my saying). According to this book introduction, one of the discussions had by the various experts was, besides whether the author of the folios did them to satisfy someone's order or by his own iniative, and another was where or from where he has made them. One assumed fact is that he forcingly has been a determined time around the area, as this work could only be made at sight. Schurhammer, the guy that took the codice from oblivion, opines that the greatest part was painted in Goa and Cambaia, but the author must have also been in the Malabar, and most probably in Ormuz and Malaca, which is pertinent, given the relative facility whith which Portuguese dislocated trough the Orient. On the other hand he wouldn't need, so to say, to go out of Goa to realize his work as, by one side, there were Kafres, Arabians, Abexins, Guzerates and other Peoples to the service of Portuguese in India and, by other side, merchants from the
most diverse nations of the Orient, aproached the main trade centers. Varthema informs that right in the beginning of the XVI century there was
in Calicut merchants not only from Turkey, Siria, Arabia Felix, Abissinia and Persia, but also from Guzerate, Malabar, Ceylon, Samatra, Pegu and Siam.

fernando · 13th April 2008, 07:14 PM

I have just received a copy of Hindu Arms and Ritual, by Elgood ... better late than never

Among several mentions to the Portuguese presence in India, a specific quotation on this Casanatense codice can be read in page 17 of Elgood's work ... something i would never guess.
... And i thaught i was breaking the news ...result of my illiteracy

25th September 2007, 06:54 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	European Influences Fernando, It seems the influence of Europe, in this case Portugal is not illustrated enough currently to makes its effect fully understood. Am sure there are records of visits to Islamic countries and what was sold or given to the rulers there of also. Just saw one reference of Portugal envoys, "The Safavid period: Shah Esma@¿^l I (q.v.) showed an interest in the purchase of firearms as early as 907/1502, soon after his enthronement (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 9-10). Yet the Safavid army's failure to use artillery in the battle of Ùa@ldera@n (q.v.) in 920/1514 was largely responsible for its defeat. Shah Esma@¿^l reacted swiftly to remedy this and immediately following the battle appointed his wak^l, Solta@n-H®osayn, as tofang±^-ba@æ^, commander of the musketeers, putting him in charge of forming of a corps of tofang±^s (Bacque‚-Grammont, p. 165; Aubin, p. 118). The results were soon noticeable. The Portuguese envoys visiting Ka@æa@n in 1515-16 observed "forty musketeers bearing muskets of metal" among the welcoming party (Smith, p. 44). By 1517, Esma@¿^l's army is said to have included 8,000 musketeers, and Venetian reports from 1521 and 1522 speak of 12,000 and 15,000 to 20,000 arquebusiers (Scarcia Amoretti, pp. 377, 405-6, 533, 545). No figures are available for Shah T®ahma@sb I's reign, yet it is clear that the musketeer corps continued to be active, frequently taking part in campaigns and in the defense of fortresses (¿AÚlama@ra@-ye ˆa@h T®ahma@sb, pp. 64, 78, 123, 157, 181, 193, 204-5, 272, 280, 297, 314, 329, 332, 335, 341, 357, 369, 376-77). By the mid-17th century, observers put the number of musketeers in the Safavid army at 8,000 to 10,000 (Tavernier, I, p. 659) to 12,000 men (Chardin, V, p. 305; Tavernier noted that in times of need, their number could rise to 50,000)." (an article by Rudi Matthee about the history of firearms in Iran) rand

25th September 2007, 04:21 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Two copies are up for sale at AbeBooks, but as few of us can read old Portuguese, the pictures Fernando have provided us with is far better than what we had before – nothing like this. The poor elephant is a beauty – in those days, elephants really had to work hard for a living. I have had to change some of my believes, like the spear shown on plate XXXVII. I would

25th September 2007, 09:09 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Portuguese in Asia Hi Rand Here are some interesting references, written in english, with lots of action. http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...ect01to03.html regards fernando

25th September 2007, 09:16 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi David Glad you like it Here are some more pictures, hoping the moderators don't get upset with such intensity. Attached Images

28th September 2007, 09:10 AM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	PDF Files. It looks like i have managed,with help from a coleague, to reformat and transform all the images into three part PDF files. I tested the thing on my own mailbox ant they seem to be sendable. Each image size is 1020x768,which is already larger than the condensed ones in the book,although quite clear ... i don´t remember the real size of these folios, the book is at home and i am not there. Somebody please "volunteer" to accept these pictures and give me an email adress, so that i can try if it works. Thanks and regards. fernando

25th September 2007, 07:20 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando great pictures....very interesting topic, thanks for posting Regards David

25th September 2007, 10:50 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	In picture 71 and some others, the guy has got a keris, as also these are mentioned to be used by a couple races, in the additional texts. Material worth to be posted in Keris Warung Kopi

26th September 2007, 12:50 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Pics V, XVII and LIX show Indian blades of archaic forms. these are illustrated in the Rawson's book only as siluettes: likely the blades themselves were not available. But here they are, in action, witnessed by the contemporary traveller! Fascinating!!!!!

28th September 2007, 01:49 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, It should have said ’I would not have expected the spear type to be that old.’ Sorry. You are very welcome to try me, you have my mail address. Jens

28th September 2007, 07:53 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Flora More than one person made coments about the flowers in the paintings, as a potential track to identify the places and also its possible simbology in the arms decorations used in the period. Herewith some thaughts and also parts translated from the book introduction, with (or without) references in the area. No mention in the legends or in texts about flowers. The only mention is on image 17, where this book introducer compares this flower with vegetable ornamentation on images 4, 7, 9, 10 and 12. The additional texts, basically used for confirmation (or some discrepancy) of the codice original author assumptions, is largely dedicated to the way these Peoples usually dressed and secondly to the arms they used, apart from lateral contextual events. Therefore flowers are used as landscape, and not necessarily belonging to Peoples lands in question ( my saying). According to this book introduction, one of the discussions had by the various experts was, besides whether the author of the folios did them to satisfy someone's order or by his own iniative, and another was where or from where he has made them. One assumed fact is that he forcingly has been a determined time around the area, as this work could only be made at sight. Schurhammer, the guy that took the codice from oblivion, opines that the greatest part was painted in Goa and Cambaia, but the author must have also been in the Malabar, and most probably in Ormuz and Malaca, which is pertinent, given the relative facility whith which Portuguese dislocated trough the Orient. On the other hand he wouldn't need, so to say, to go out of Goa to realize his work as, by one side, there were Kafres, Arabians, Abexins, Guzerates and other Peoples to the service of Portuguese in India and, by other side, merchants from the most diverse nations of the Orient, aproached the main trade centers. Varthema informs that right in the beginning of the XVI century there was in Calicut merchants not only from Turkey, Siria, Arabia Felix, Abissinia and Persia, but also from Guzerate, Malabar, Ceylon, Samatra, Pegu and Siam.

13th April 2008, 07:14 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Holly ignorance I have just received a copy of Hindu Arms and Ritual, by Elgood ... better late than never Among several mentions to the Portuguese presence in India, a specific quotation on this Casanatense codice can be read in page 17 of Elgood's work ... something i would never guess. ... And i thaught i was breaking the news ...result of my illiteracy