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16th September 2007, 01:29 AM
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#1 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Quote:
If any tulwar were kept dissasembled, {something I personaly find hard to belive, but cannot disprove. dispite the fact it would logisticaly be a nightmare.}} they would only be the very lowest quality pieces for volonteers & conscripted peasents, as after all all the Marajahs, kings & major landowners whatever, had there own proffesional standing full time army & troops. Brass Brazing has been around for centurys in India. For $280 I would want a very nice tulwar, but they are commen in England. Spiral |
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16th September 2007, 02:31 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Hello,
Perhaps a way to resolve the matter of whether or not tulwars were stored disassembled would be to look at the old catalogues when Indian armouries sold their stock to western auction houses and collectors. Were the countless tulwars sold assembled or disassembled? If assembled, would the armouries or the buyers go through all the trouble of re-hilting the thousands of tulwars that were bought? Fernando, I recommend you start using eBay, there are loads of tulwars at cheap prices, as well as scores of other goodies. Here in Canada I think our situation is reversed from yours: our antique shops are empty and we have no junk shops. People here have little to no real interest in pre-WWI stuff. At military shows the cheap ethno tourist trinkets are priced off the scale, so ebay is the best alternative. Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 16th September 2007 at 04:11 PM. |
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16th September 2007, 05:58 AM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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Pant defines Gaddara as a yelman-ed sword with a triangular point ( see attached pic from his book). He attributes the origin of the name to "gadar" : engaging in riot, mutiny.
I also show the so-called Irani Gaddara, with a typical Persian/Polish Karabela-type handle, all steel. The blade has incised panels on both sides, with remnants of gilding. Indian swords with a double-edge segment at the tip are, IMHO, descendants of Kalachoori and you may wish to look at the very end of the thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4223 where Odevan and myself are trying to come up with the origins of that name. |
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16th September 2007, 09:33 PM
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#4 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Quote:
I am much obliged for your response, clarifying things for me and other interested members. Your Irani-Gaddara is beautyfull. I can see that the Pant's Gaddara specimen is rather different than the sword with same atribution depicted by Tirri, which is closer to the piece i am questioning. But i take it from you that the Pant's specimen is the real gaddara. On the other hand i assimilate that neither looks like the piece i saw, which has a blade more curved than the one at Tirri's and doesn't have such a pronounced yelmen and triangular tip like in Pant's drawing. So i am considering the possibility of the piece i query on, being such Kalachoori descendent you mention, which eventually i had followed in the thread you started on the Kilij. I am now not so much inclined to buy it, as the price seems to be a bit exagerated. But if i will, or if at least i take some pictures of it, i will come back here to show it, to take any doubts. Thanks once again. fernando Last edited by fernando; 17th September 2007 at 12:32 AM. |
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17th September 2007, 12:05 AM
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#5 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,670
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Good call on the Charlemagne sword Manolo!!! It sure does bring that to mind.
Thank you for the note on the 'firangi' (and reference) ! All best regards, Jim |
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16th September 2007, 04:30 PM
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#6 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Emanuel,
Quote:
Between the historical time reflected in the book (relative to the Discoveries period, XVI-XVII century), and the stock sell out of the Indian Armouries, a good couple centuries were past. Probably some techniques and tatics were vanished by then, tulwars were not the massive vital weapon any more, thus not being the fulcrum of stategies. The same thing could happen with their blade fixing system, rivets or no rivets ... what do i know? I am not sayingt that the book author is not wrong or talking nonsense, but maybe some points should be considered, to give it the benefit of doubt. I notice that you call me Flavio. I hope he doesn't mind you calling me his name ... i don't  I don't use eBay by option, based on various reasons ... some of them subjective: I hate to wait long for things to arrive, i hate that they are submited to customs with whatever unexpected results, i hate to find out that the thing i ordered is not what i expected ( i am already sucker enough without that ), i hate to bid and loose, and i hate the idea to find one more way to spend money. Even sticking only to what i find in shops and junk fairs around here, is more than enough for me to expand my consumism vice. BTW, pre WW1 stuff is still to modern for my taste. I also neither fancy reproductions nor still active pieces. I like real antique things, XIX century or prior, as if i were a tycoon  When i feel that my pockets are full, i travel to Lisbon to visit my daughter ( some 220 miles ), and go to a couple specialized shops there, where one can find tones of good old and serious ( expensive ) stuff. All the best fernando |
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16th September 2007, 04:48 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,242
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Hi Fernando, I apologize for the mistake. I had one of Flavio's threads open at the same time, I was tired and both of you start with F
 What you say about the storing of swords in the time of Discovery could be valid. I wonder, are there no texts or treatises by Indian generals/strategists/etc ? There must be some sort of documentation left over from those times. I always envy you folks on the home continent. Go in any shop and you're bound to find some treasure. Canadians generally go for the Wars memorabilia, understandably but saddly for me .Best regards, Emanuel |
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16th September 2007, 05:30 PM
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#8 | |||
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Quote:
 Quote:
) on fire if he is developing some fantasy on the tulwar subject, but he holds the most precious specimens of weaponry, cannonery, armoury, documentations, cargo inventories, maps and portolanos , you name whatelse, of the discoveries period ... and not only. He is the owner of some items collections, like sword pommels and other, to the gauge of largest in the world. He was visited by the British Museum to inventory and photograph some of his collections ( was it the pommels or the gun locks ? ). He has plenty ranks and credentials both in Portugal and Europe. One of the persons that managed to visit his mannor house was Antonio Cejunior, a member of this Forum.http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/RDCollection.htm Only he is not an web guy ... otherwise i would advice you ( or anyone else ) to check with him about the tulwar subject. The shops i mentioned in Lisbon are actually his own. This way he can sell his excedents and specially buy more and more stuff for his collection. Everytimes i go there and have a chance, i ask him to "lecture" me about a determined specimen. He "connects the turbos" and keeps disserting on the subject for hours, untill the next client or fellow collector or friend arrives. Quote:
Lots of health for you fernando Last edited by fernando; 16th September 2007 at 05:50 PM. |
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16th September 2007, 06:56 PM
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#9 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Spiral
Part of the answer is in the answer i just posted to Manolo. I wouldn't know if the count is 500 000 items, but you must consider not only basic weaponry specimens but also periphericals, amunitions, accessories, documents and all sorts of devices. He lends and donates specimens to Museums and keeps permanent exhibitions in various places. The book you mention is in its fourth edition and is actually called in Portuguese "Homens Espadas e Tomates" = "Men Swords and Tomatoes" which comes to the same. It's in fact the book i quoted on the tulwar theme and, that i know, Jim McDougall, Philip Tom and Marc Gener have a copy. I have three other of his works. Some are bilingual. I take it that the others are more on the historical side and don't discuss or depict weapons themselves, which is not my interest. I also ignore if the books he wrote are such sixty, or if some of them are just thematic articles, but i know that he writes introductions and makes evaluations for fine weapons auctions catalogues, from wich i have one or two. He is also the guy selected by the Courts when it comes the need for antique weapons expertize. Among various ranks, he is the President of the Portuguese Academy of Antique Arms, from which i have a couple bilingual bulletins. In other words, exorbitating or not, i bet he feels well above those that may pretend to question his deeds  . You know, when a guy is good and famous at something, he has more perrogatives to enhance his knowledge or even "invent" variations, than greyish folks. Speaking about his balls accuracy, i heard that he goes on his third wife .Yes, as i told Emanuel, i know the shop you mention and another one in Cascais. I also know that he once opened another one in London, in front of Harrods, to buy stuff from Portuguese Aristocracy that fled from Portugal during the last revolution in 1974. As an example, he has bought from an unamed Marquis lots of precious documentation from the XVI and XVII century. About you having not read any of his works, you know the British phlegm ... Portuguese ? Discoveries? what in heck is that ? Exceptionaly one of the best or even unique Portuguese works from the XVIII century, ESPINGARDA PERFEITA = THE PERFECT GUN, was translated by him and a British called W. Keith Neal, and was selling for 10 pounds by Sotheby Parke Bernet, in 1974. Maybe you didn't exist at the time or were not old enough to buy books?! At leasdt i didn't see you around when i stayed in Britain for a couple months back in 1967  As for his other works i have or know, i can apoint them to you or even scan some of the pages, depending on your area of interest ... no big deal. Even if they are poor stuff, one allways gets to now more than before he reads them. Sincerly fernando Last edited by fernando; 16th September 2007 at 11:57 PM. |
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16th September 2007, 08:22 PM
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#10 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,670
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Hi Fernando,
Thank you for adding the excerpt from the Daehnhardt reference, it really has a lot of fascinating detail (its great to have the translated material since the text is in Portuguese and Ive always been resigned to admiring the illustrations . The discussion on whether the swords were stored intact or disassembled is truly an interesting aside here, and it is a topic I have really never been aware of nor considered. It is an interesting idea that you have added some support for by showing the chronic unrest experienced in these kingdoms! It is interesting that the sword that Ariel has so kindly posted here is termed 'gaddara', a term that refers to riot or mutiny, suggesting that these events occurred enough that a sword type might be colloquially referred to by the term. It seems to me that there are so many terms, concepts, misperceptions etc. in the study of arms and armour and history, and these have often led to myths, legends and folklore perpetuated by romanticizing and interpretation by later writers. Often these 'chestnuts' ( an English figure of speech are interjected into books, articles and narratives, and in these are seldom, if ever, referenced. With this being the case, it is quite easy to imagine someone as immersed in a literal sea of antiquities and historica as Mr. Daehnhardt, adding such detail in writing without reference. How lucky you are to have such a figure nearby Fernando! It would be so incredibly amazing for the opportunity to visit him and his collections! It would seem that the fabricating of tulwar hilts, or others such as katars, in a single piece would be ease of manufacture. The well established use of trade blades, and probable existance of voluminous stores of these components in arsenals having been received from incoming vendors or traders, might have been in varying stages of assembly. Possibly the rulers saw no urgent need to employ furbishers in such assemblies until threat was perceived (sounds like pretty regularly though!). While it is not noted by those who witnessed the removal of the arsenal materials, whether the weapons were intact or not, it is noted they were huge heaps of rusted metal mostly, and only the best examples were kept. Possibly what may have been implied was 'intact' examples ? as well as obviously those in better condition. As Manolo has suggested, the catalogues reflect many examples which were all intact from what I have seen. The most prominant armoury disassembly was of course Tanjore, and Elgood discusses this in "Hindu Arms and Ritual", huge numbers of items were acquired by Walhouse, who then furnished them to Oldman, whose catalogs are legion. Many of the items ended up with our sage of arms and armour, George Cameron Stone, who bequethed the majority to the Metropolitan Museum in New York. Ariel, I would like to thank you very much for so kindly posting the 'gaddara' entry from Pant, posting the page and especially for posting the magnificent example with it! I have been asking for posting of some of these entries in Pant as I do not have access to my copy and I know that many readers do not have copies, and the material is I think important in our discussions on Indian weapons. I know I can only speak for myself, but I am sure many others are grateful as I am for your continued posts, observations and for answering the call as in this case. It is truly very much appreciated! all very best regards, Jim |
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17th September 2007, 12:28 AM
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#11 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Jim,
As usually, your postings are most generous, Quote:
several shipping inventories ( cargo manifests ) of the XVI century, and he knew by mind the marking system employed in the gunpowder barrels at the period. I have found this an amazing episode. best regards fernando |
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16th September 2007, 05:09 PM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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No worrys Fernando, I would say yes I am an English gentleman but you already know that isnt true....
Thankyou for the excert of Rainer Daehnhardt`s. I must admit I havent read any o the 60 plus military history books hes written so far . He certanly turns them out fast! Interesting that he has reputedly collection of more than 500.000 swords, guns, canons, pommels, maps and manuscripts related to the Portuguese Discoveries & the people they met. {great euphimism!} If he looked at each piece for five minutes, non stop for 10 hours a day evry day it would take him 15years! that combined with having written over 60 books actualy makes me wonder somewhat about his material. But I guess I am a skeptic. 500,000 pieces, that would arm several of the great old Indian armys in thier intirity! So realy he should be a great resource of hands on expierience, but I do wonder.... It seems he has a shop as well, perhaps you know it? Avenida Engenheiro Duarte Pacheco, Amoreiras Shopping, loja 1031, Campolide, 1070-100 Lisbon. Tel: 213 833 249 It might be woth visiting? He might even have a few tens of thousands of old kukris to get rid off if I am lucky! But seriosly, does he state any source of his statemets about the separate storage of handels & blades? I see one of his books it titled "Men, Weapons & Balls" & I rather fear that title may be rather accurate collouquly speaking. But perhaps I am wrong & I certanly cant proove he is. I would like to see some of his other works I think... Spiral |
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16th September 2007, 03:04 PM
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#13 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Quote:
I confess my eyes were not correctly focused. I wouldn't know that rivets were "disguised" by decoration. I was infuenced by the tulwar i saw at the seller i visited, that has no ( more ) decoration and the rivet is clearly seen , with no surrounding efects. I now can see them easy at Tirris book. Not wanting to argue for the sake of resisting to this fact, could it be that the ancient tulwars ( before XVI-XVII century ) were mostly unriveted ? fernando Last edited by fernando; 16th September 2007 at 03:52 PM. |
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16th September 2007, 03:08 PM
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#14 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Quote:
This is contingent, as can be relative to the period at question.I will better revert with a strict and exaustive translation of page 189, that refers: ''' The main charateristic of this arm is little known, but rather interesting. Apart from individual arms that were manufactured for high rank personalities, more simple tulwars were also produced, in large quantities, for the Sovereigns arsenals. Invasions, popular insubordinations and palatial revolutions were very frequent. Few were the Sovereigns that dyed of natural causes. The state of war between ones and others was a frequente situation. In this atmosphere it became obvious that the possession and access to the arsenals were a preocupation of the greatest priority. A system was invented that impeached the possibility of using an Indian arsenal from one moment to the other. The handles of tulwars were built in metal ( usually iron ), joining guard, grip and pommel in one only piece, which doesn't happen in the majority of white weapons of other origins, where all these components were separated one from eachother. As tulwars handles were one only part, it became easy to join all these in one arsenal ( we are talking, in round numbers, in the order of the one hundred thousand handles ), and build a tower where these could be well kept with "seven keys" ( my commas , for a Portuguese figure of speech ). In another tower, distant from the first one, the respective blades were kept. When a sovereign decided to invade a neighbour country or prepare himself to defend his own, such event would be known within months of antecipation, which allowed for the mounting of the blades in their handles. Such blades had a short tang, which was neither peened, screwed, or stuck by a pin. To couple the blade with the grip, the late was turned upsidown, pouring in into his hollow part heated pitch, therefore liquid, as the blade was inserted. Once the pith cooled down, the blade would be fixed enough for battle, during years. In case it started to oscilate, the fixing system could allways be repeated. A strategic Sovereign would know how much time he needed to mount his army weapons and, taking precaution, had his arsenals ready in due time for the distribution of tulwars. In case of a mutiny or a palatial revolution, there was no time to mount the tulwars, in a manner that the arsenals were relatively protected from improper utilization.''' As a curiosity, i have read in pages 244/255 of the same book that, between the XI and XVIII centuries, only twenty six out of the sixty four Industani Sovereigns left the throne due to natural death. As for the other twenty eight: 13 were killed (Gheias-oo-dee by his son and Seyed Mobarik at the mosque ). 8 were deposed/killed. 2 were deposed and blinded. 5 were deposed. 2 were deposed and expelled. 2 dyed in battle ( Ibraim Lodi in Paniput ). 1 was poisoned. 1 was emprisoned and killed. 1 dyed by accident. 1 fled after military defeat. 1 abdicated. ... Did i fail anyone ? fernando Last edited by fernando; 16th September 2007 at 03:22 PM. |
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16th September 2007, 03:51 PM
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#15 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Quote:
Thanks a lot for the info. I thaught well that the langet repair was a period one. But maybe after all i don't buy the piece or, if i ever do, will counter offer a lower price, like 100 pounds. Here between us two, i thaught you were posting from the the States. Sorry for the mistake fernando |
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