Angle between ganja and pesi

ganjawulung · 4th September 2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Michel, I was told by one of our members that this attitude of the blade is called Condong Leleh and that it relates to the gesture of sembah.

Hi Michel,
I had an experience with the late Empu Djeno in Jogjakarta, in 1996. (It related to Rick's comment on "condong leleh", that I think Rick is right). At that time, I asked Empu Djeno to participate in our Tosan Aji (including keris) Exhibition in Bentara Budaya Jakarta August 1996, but he refused it because he felt too old (67 years old at that time) to leave his house in Moyudan, Gatak, Sleman Jogjakarta just to come to an exhibiton in Jakarta.

He told me that he was very proud in the past, because the late Sultan Hamengku Buwono (HB) IX had commissioned two kerises to him. One with dhapur "jangkung mangkunagoro" (three luks) in 1984, and "sinom tuding" (straight keris with sekar kacang, with very sharp point called "nyujen") in 1985.

On "condong leleh", according to Empu Djeno, HB IX had different bow with his predecessors, HB VII which was to straight, and HB VIII that was too bow... HB IX, according to Mr Djeno, chose in between (bow) of the two predecessors. Of course, HB IX didn't tell Mr Djeno, why this Jogja sultan asked him to do the commissioned kerises like that. But in the interpretation of Empu Djeno, the "condong leleh" showed the attitude of the gentlemen (who commissioned the keris) toward the society, or the environtment surround him. HB IX was too "straight" against the dutch colonial, and HB VIII too "bow" to the dutch authority...

This is just my simple sharing to you, Michel...

Ganjawulungt

Michel · 4th September 2007, 05:16 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you for sharing these interesting explanations.
They are diverse and sometime complementary. I will retain that:
- there are biomechanical reasons related to the fighting use of the keris,that explains the angle between the pesi and the the blade. The angle I have measured on the images in "Keris Jawa antara mistic dan nalar" is 10°
- This angle is not there for esthetical reasons but for the previously mentioned biomechanical one and is built very precisely. There I must acknowledge my ignorance of the word "bakalan" and as result, I do not understand fully Alan's explanation. (sorry Alan my Dictionary has not yet arrived).
- The angle between the pesi and the ganja is the result of the difference of thickness of the ganja, of the position of the pesi on the width of the blade and of the previous angle. This position is precisely given by the "bakalan" and a grid utilized by empu and keris makers. I will find more on this in Alan's paper:"origin of the Keris"
-If there is also a symbolic reason to the first angle (humbleness ?) the second angle seems to be there only as the result of the above given reasons.

I am in the middle of a keris patrem forging and it seems that I will miss the exact positioning of the pesi on the blade as I did not know of the "bakalan" question. I think I can get the right angle , but my pesi will be a bit out placed. I guess I will have to live with that.
A final question: what is the thickness of the ganja ? is there a rule or can I make it just esthetically ?
Thanks to all for all these informations
Regards
Michel

lemmythesmith · 4th September 2007, 10:35 PM

Hi Michel, I'm in the middle of building a patrem as well and I did the exact same thing with the pesi as you have, now the ukiran is made it looks better, you don't seem to see the "wrong" angle and placement as much! Have you laminated the blade and if so what metals/number of layers have you used?

A. G. Maisey · 5th September 2007, 12:04 AM

A bakalan/calonan is a forging.There is a difference in the two words in Indonesian, but in English "forging" covers both. Go here:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIempus.html

scroll to the bottom of the page and you will see what a keris forging should look like before it is carved.

The angle between the pesi and the ganja can vary because of difference in thickness of the ganja on each side of the pesi, but in making the keris, the important thing is the angle of the blade relevant to the blade base.

Before you start to make the keris you must make a pattern. You can draw this if you are a good artist, or you can use a suitable old blade and trace the outline.This pattern will establish the overall form and angles of the blade. To set the angle of the blade you take a line through the centre of the pesi and extend it past the point, you establish an angle of 90 degrees between the blade base and this line, in a normal sized keris of Surakarta style the point must fall between 5 and 6 cm. from the line.You cut your pattern to agree with the angle you have established, but you leave the top of the pattern above the blade base, uncut. You then draw the ganja that you want in its place. When you have drawn the ganja you may find that some slight adjustments to angles are required for aesthetic reasons. You make these adjustments. When you are satisfied with the form of the pattern, you complete cutting it to shape, and you are ready to begin forging your keris to shape. It can help if you make a couple of copies of the pattern and glue one of them to a piece of light flat iron. This will allow you to constantly check as you forge.

The thickness of the ganja is an aesthetic consideration, but generally speaking, a blade with a thick ganja is regarded as artistically superior to one with a thin ganja, but bear in mind, one must have the experience to judge what is acceptable within the given parameters.You cannot just make "a ganja". You need to make the ganja to the correct form to suit the style of keris that you are making, and this style of keris needs to be governed by the parameters set by tangguh. If one does not understand tangguh it is probably best to find a blade that is pleasing to one's eye and copy that blade, or at least, use it for a guide. It is very, very difficult to make an accurate copy of a blade, but it is not so difficult to use a blade as a guide to help in establishing the forms that will appear in the finished blade.

If the keris being made is not of a normal size, the angle can be established by scaling against that applicable to a normal keris, however, after this scaling has been done, it is virtually certain that adjustments to angle will be required.

As a very broad aesthetic guide to the final visual impression that will be created by the keris, it should reflect the character, personality and perhaps physical build of the person it is being made for.However, this interpretation must be made within the parameters permitted by the style of the keris.

Michel · 5th September 2007, 02:56 PM

lemmythesmith
interesting that you are also in the same process. Yes my blade is laminated but I cannot recall the number of layers. They will be few (8 or 16) as this piece started as an exercise to heat weld nickel to iron. the pamor will be mlumah or parallel to the blade. I still have to lengthen the blade to fit my pattern that is next to the blade on the photo and follow Alan's explanations before starting the stock removal actions.
I look forwar to see you blade when you will have completed it.
Thanks, regards
Michel

Michel · 5th September 2007, 03:44 PM

Thank you Alan for all the information.
I have now been on your site, printed some of the pages and I am learning a lot.
I have also discovered that you give a glossary of Indonesian words related to keris which will be of great help at least until my dictionary arrives.
Your article "origin of the keris" gives a very convincing explanation about the keris evolution and change of Angle between the pesi and the blade.
I have a few problems to follow exactly your methodology for forging a keris, as I started making an exercise of heat welding that we transformed at a later stage into a blade and a blade not big enough to make a normal keris but only a patrem.
I than had to find a good example of a patrem. I found it on Alam Shah site where he had one nice patrem with not too many luk and a thin and elegant blade, but no way to establish the angle between the pesi and the blade and a very special kerdas hilt.
As you have seen on the photo, I do not have enough metal for the ganja and I will be iconoclastic again and forge it from a separate layered piece with no nickel. I will do my best to have this ganja as esthetically acceptable as possible. The example of Alam Shah, looks fine for me.
I will have some difficulties with the selection of the hilt and sheath shapes. My inclination would be to make a hilt Jogjakarta or Surakarta style with a sheath ladrang, but I may be completely heretical with such a combination.

I recognize that I do not tend towards perfection and excellence with that keris but as I do that for my pleasure, I hope it will not matter much and I will be pardon by you and the senior members of warung kopi !
Thank you so much for what you have explained and all the advices given.
Kind regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2007, 02:38 AM

Michel, if you can phrase the problems you have in following my methodology as straightforward, specific questions, I will be happy to try to answer these for you.

4th September 2007, 05:16 PM	#2
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	the right angle Gentlemen, Thank you for sharing these interesting explanations. They are diverse and sometime complementary. I will retain that: - there are biomechanical reasons related to the fighting use of the keris,that explains the angle between the pesi and the the blade. The angle I have measured on the images in "Keris Jawa antara mistic dan nalar" is 10° - This angle is not there for esthetical reasons but for the previously mentioned biomechanical one and is built very precisely. There I must acknowledge my ignorance of the word "bakalan" and as result, I do not understand fully Alan's explanation. (sorry Alan my Dictionary has not yet arrived). - The angle between the pesi and the ganja is the result of the difference of thickness of the ganja, of the position of the pesi on the width of the blade and of the previous angle. This position is precisely given by the "bakalan" and a grid utilized by empu and keris makers. I will find more on this in Alan's paper:"origin of the Keris" -If there is also a symbolic reason to the first angle (humbleness ?) the second angle seems to be there only as the result of the above given reasons. I am in the middle of a keris patrem forging and it seems that I will miss the exact positioning of the pesi on the blade as I did not know of the "bakalan" question. I think I can get the right angle , but my pesi will be a bit out placed. I guess I will have to live with that. A final question: what is the thickness of the ganja ? is there a rule or can I make it just esthetically ? Thanks to all for all these informations Regards Michel Attached Images

5th September 2007, 02:56 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Angle, forging, ganja lemmythesmith interesting that you are also in the same process. Yes my blade is laminated but I cannot recall the number of layers. They will be few (8 or 16) as this piece started as an exercise to heat weld nickel to iron. the pamor will be mlumah or parallel to the blade. I still have to lengthen the blade to fit my pattern that is next to the blade on the photo and follow Alan's explanations before starting the stock removal actions. I look forwar to see you blade when you will have completed it. Thanks, regards Michel

5th September 2007, 03:44 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Angle, forging, ganja Thank you Alan for all the information. I have now been on your site, printed some of the pages and I am learning a lot. I have also discovered that you give a glossary of Indonesian words related to keris which will be of great help at least until my dictionary arrives. Your article "origin of the keris" gives a very convincing explanation about the keris evolution and change of Angle between the pesi and the blade. I have a few problems to follow exactly your methodology for forging a keris, as I started making an exercise of heat welding that we transformed at a later stage into a blade and a blade not big enough to make a normal keris but only a patrem. I than had to find a good example of a patrem. I found it on Alam Shah site where he had one nice patrem with not too many luk and a thin and elegant blade, but no way to establish the angle between the pesi and the blade and a very special kerdas hilt. As you have seen on the photo, I do not have enough metal for the ganja and I will be iconoclastic again and forge it from a separate layered piece with no nickel. I will do my best to have this ganja as esthetically acceptable as possible. The example of Alam Shah, looks fine for me. I will have some difficulties with the selection of the hilt and sheath shapes. My inclination would be to make a hilt Jogjakarta or Surakarta style with a sheath ladrang, but I may be completely heretical with such a combination. I recognize that I do not tend towards perfection and excellence with that keris but as I do that for my pleasure, I hope it will not matter much and I will be pardon by you and the senior members of warung kopi ! Thank you so much for what you have explained and all the advices given. Kind regards Michel

4th September 2007, 10:35 PM	#3
lemmythesmith Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 93	Hi Michel, I'm in the middle of building a patrem as well and I did the exact same thing with the pesi as you have, now the ukiran is made it looks better, you don't seem to see the "wrong" angle and placement as much! Have you laminated the blade and if so what metals/number of layers have you used?

5th September 2007, 12:04 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	A bakalan/calonan is a forging.There is a difference in the two words in Indonesian, but in English "forging" covers both. Go here:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/PBXIIempus.html scroll to the bottom of the page and you will see what a keris forging should look like before it is carved. The angle between the pesi and the ganja can vary because of difference in thickness of the ganja on each side of the pesi, but in making the keris, the important thing is the angle of the blade relevant to the blade base. Before you start to make the keris you must make a pattern. You can draw this if you are a good artist, or you can use a suitable old blade and trace the outline.This pattern will establish the overall form and angles of the blade. To set the angle of the blade you take a line through the centre of the pesi and extend it past the point, you establish an angle of 90 degrees between the blade base and this line, in a normal sized keris of Surakarta style the point must fall between 5 and 6 cm. from the line.You cut your pattern to agree with the angle you have established, but you leave the top of the pattern above the blade base, uncut. You then draw the ganja that you want in its place. When you have drawn the ganja you may find that some slight adjustments to angles are required for aesthetic reasons. You make these adjustments. When you are satisfied with the form of the pattern, you complete cutting it to shape, and you are ready to begin forging your keris to shape. It can help if you make a couple of copies of the pattern and glue one of them to a piece of light flat iron. This will allow you to constantly check as you forge. The thickness of the ganja is an aesthetic consideration, but generally speaking, a blade with a thick ganja is regarded as artistically superior to one with a thin ganja, but bear in mind, one must have the experience to judge what is acceptable within the given parameters.You cannot just make "a ganja". You need to make the ganja to the correct form to suit the style of keris that you are making, and this style of keris needs to be governed by the parameters set by tangguh. If one does not understand tangguh it is probably best to find a blade that is pleasing to one's eye and copy that blade, or at least, use it for a guide. It is very, very difficult to make an accurate copy of a blade, but it is not so difficult to use a blade as a guide to help in establishing the forms that will appear in the finished blade. If the keris being made is not of a normal size, the angle can be established by scaling against that applicable to a normal keris, however, after this scaling has been done, it is virtually certain that adjustments to angle will be required. As a very broad aesthetic guide to the final visual impression that will be created by the keris, it should reflect the character, personality and perhaps physical build of the person it is being made for.However, this interpretation must be made within the parameters permitted by the style of the keris.

6th September 2007, 02:38 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Michel, if you can phrase the problems you have in following my methodology as straightforward, specific questions, I will be happy to try to answer these for you.