Angle between ganja and pesi

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2007, 01:44 AM

There are actually a couple of angles involved here.
There is the angle that is formed by the base of the blade with the pesi, without the gonjo, and there is the form of the top of the gonjo.
Where the thickness of the gonjo stays the same on each side of the pesi, the angle of gonjo to pesi will remain the same as the angle of blade base to pesi.

The angle of pesi to the blade base in a modern keris varies from the angle of pesi to blade base in the keris buda. I proposed the idea some time ago that this variation occurred because of a basic difference in the way in which the keris buda, and its forebears, was held, and the way in which a modern keris was held. The keris buda was held in a way that allowed a strong downwards stabbing action to be used; the modern keris is held in a fencing grip that favours a thrust.

I think that you will find the angles of pesi to blade axis set out in my "Origin" paper.

The related angle, or perhaps more correctly, "form" is the form of the top of the gonjo. This form dictates the form of the top of the wrongko, and the form of the top of the wrongko is probably dictated by stylistic convention from era to era.This stylistic convention flows on to the desired appearance of the keris when worn.Maybe this becomes a "chicken & egg" question. Did the court stylists first determine thay wanted a larger curve and a more flamboyant wrongko, or did the court empus first decide that a more highly curved gonjo looked sexier?Or did they all work together to decide this direction?

In the making of a keris, this angle of the pesi to the blade axis is determined by measuring the keris bakalan against a grid and setting the place on the bakalan for the point, and the place on the bakalan for the centre of the pesi; once these two points are set, the line for the base of the blade can be established. It is not a haphazard thing done by measuring with the eye, it is really done with a great deal of precision.

RobT · 4th September 2007, 02:50 AM

Hi all,
Perhaps the angle was originally designed to incline the point toward the target when the blade was held at the side. The angle doesn't seem significant but it might have been sufficient to increase the chances of success. If what I propose is correct then the the angle parameters would be governed by the amount of inclination needed to keep the point on target during the thrust and limited by the amount of inclination that would cause the wrist to bend on impact. Perhaps the aesthetic evaluations derived from these mechanical necessities.
Sincerely,
RobT

PenangsangII · 4th September 2007, 03:30 AM

Michel, Rick & drdavid are correct that the angle of the keris is physicall biomechanic purpose. To understand this, you will have to understand how the keris is used for combat. In Malay martial tradition, when fighting using a keris, you are not to parry your opponent's weapon, but instead you side step to the especially left, or right. When stabbing your opponent from the left or right side, the angle will suddenly make sense.....

Philosophically, the downward angle also represents humbleness, the general character of the Malay people....humble but deadly

4th September 2007, 02:50 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 551	angled to target? Hi all, Perhaps the angle was originally designed to incline the point toward the target when the blade was held at the side. The angle doesn't seem significant but it might have been sufficient to increase the chances of success. If what I propose is correct then the the angle parameters would be governed by the amount of inclination needed to keep the point on target during the thrust and limited by the amount of inclination that would cause the wrist to bend on impact. Perhaps the aesthetic evaluations derived from these mechanical necessities. Sincerely, RobT

4th September 2007, 01:44 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	There are actually a couple of angles involved here. There is the angle that is formed by the base of the blade with the pesi, without the gonjo, and there is the form of the top of the gonjo. Where the thickness of the gonjo stays the same on each side of the pesi, the angle of gonjo to pesi will remain the same as the angle of blade base to pesi. The angle of pesi to the blade base in a modern keris varies from the angle of pesi to blade base in the keris buda. I proposed the idea some time ago that this variation occurred because of a basic difference in the way in which the keris buda, and its forebears, was held, and the way in which a modern keris was held. The keris buda was held in a way that allowed a strong downwards stabbing action to be used; the modern keris is held in a fencing grip that favours a thrust. I think that you will find the angles of pesi to blade axis set out in my "Origin" paper. The related angle, or perhaps more correctly, "form" is the form of the top of the gonjo. This form dictates the form of the top of the wrongko, and the form of the top of the wrongko is probably dictated by stylistic convention from era to era.This stylistic convention flows on to the desired appearance of the keris when worn.Maybe this becomes a "chicken & egg" question. Did the court stylists first determine thay wanted a larger curve and a more flamboyant wrongko, or did the court empus first decide that a more highly curved gonjo looked sexier?Or did they all work together to decide this direction? In the making of a keris, this angle of the pesi to the blade axis is determined by measuring the keris bakalan against a grid and setting the place on the bakalan for the point, and the place on the bakalan for the centre of the pesi; once these two points are set, the line for the base of the blade can be established. It is not a haphazard thing done by measuring with the eye, it is really done with a great deal of precision.

4th September 2007, 03:30 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Michel, Rick & drdavid are correct that the angle of the keris is physicall biomechanic purpose. To understand this, you will have to understand how the keris is used for combat. In Malay martial tradition, when fighting using a keris, you are not to parry your opponent's weapon, but instead you side step to the especially left, or right. When stabbing your opponent from the left or right side, the angle will suddenly make sense..... Philosophically, the downward angle also represents humbleness, the general character of the Malay people....humble but deadly