The Kingdom.

Michel · 31st August 2007, 05:58 PM

Alan, your posts are always interesting,they achieve their objectives and they force us to think.
I reacted essentially because of your sentence : I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square, followed by David information, that that question was "the OM/ron dha theory".

I have not understood the question but translated it for myself with about the same meaning as: if I were to come across a puzzling carving on a blade that depicted a singa barong wearing a tophat, what would be the most valuable information, the name of a keris with such a carving, or its meaning?

In a brutal summary, this meant that the few thousands posts of warung kopi were almost wasted and that we were, with a few exceptions, a happy bunch of brainless junior clerks concentrating on a wrong approach to the keris. I am convince that that was not what you meant to say, but that is what I understood.

The difference of level between your knowledge about Indonesia, the keris, its symbolism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, the geography of Indonesia and the related local cultures and my culture on the same subjects is so large that words may not carry the same messages and meaning. The question of
"the OM/ron dha theory" is a good exemple. It was meaningless for me.

Secondly if you and a few others are really studying and making research on the keris, it is certainly not the case of many members who are just trying to understand what is a keris, why is it so important, why isn't it a weapon only (or at all), why is it so decorated, complicated to produce, why so many pamor, dapur, areng, etc.

As you have said in your last post, there are many ways of being a keris collector, each one of us looks for something different and excellence may not be the criteria of selection that can be afforded !

Finally Alan and David, (as I think David understood you better than most) if we do it wrong, can you help us, guide us, on the right way ? But please remember that there is a large gap of knowledge between your knowledges and mine (and may be of others) and if the complete Mahabharata has to be read and understood to be able to raise a question as the "singa barong with a tophat"(!) I at least will need some time!
I remember Dietrich Drescher : there are many many more questions about keris, than answers.
I think that your remarks achieved your objective: provoke thoughts.
Thank you Alan.
Kind and respectful regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2007, 11:57 PM

Michel, as I have already said, my intention was not to be harsh, not to be hypercritical, and certainly not to dismiss all posts except the one about the ron dha/OM theory as childish.

However, if we were to go back through all the posts that have ever put up in our warung, or in the old forum, how many times would we come across evidence of a new idea?

We can find plenty of basic questions, the answers to most of which are covered somewhere in the published literature. We can find plenty of questions in the nature of "what is it, and where does it come from?" I have no criticism of this type of thing, especially so as I realise only too well that the vast bulk of people who read and contribute to this discussion group are not really all that interested in what the Hindu priests of Majapahit had for breakfast.

All these questions I think we can consider as being "in the square", that is, they are the normal, standard type of fare for general discussion amongst a group of people with a shared interest.

However, consider this:- for how much longer can this discussion group survive by repetition of the same questions in different phrasing?

We could become a "show and tell" group. Probably not too bad a thing for some of us, although I personally have reservations about this type of content.

Or we can try taking a slightly more in depth approach to the subject of the keris.

The two people whom I regard as my most important teachers of the keris never actually "taught" me anything. They would only answer a question if I raised that question. Once I asked one of them why he would not sit down and tell me everything he considered that I needed to know. He responded that when I had sufficient knowledge to ask the right questions the answers would come. I now consider this to be the best and most useful way in which to gain knowledge about the keris. I can align this approach to that used in my own profession, and I find that --- except for the window dressing--- it is the same.

Imagine for a moment that this discussion group were to be centered around drag cars, or mountain bikes, or even fishing. Discussion about these subjects, and other subjects like these subjects, seems to consistently throw up ideas on how to improve something. The contributors to the discussion are actively thinking about the subject of discussion. Yes there is a basic difference between drag cars and keris:- one is an active subject, the other is passive. However, questions can be generated by both, once we take the point of view that the keris is not simply an object divorced from its origin and environment, and frozen in time.

Michel, you have very clearly identified a number of questions that could be raised for discussion; a couple of these questions could be considered as "big questions", questions that may not have an answer that we can uncover. These would make wonderful questions to be raised for discussion.

Keris discussion has been going on in this site for a number of years. A little while ago the Warung began as a specialist place for keris discussion. I think that we can now say that we are well established as the place to come to for those people who want to talk about the keris in the English language. The dues have been paid.If we are to move to the next level it I suggest that perhaps the time is ripe for some slightly more thought provoking questions to be raised.

Michel · 1st September 2007, 02:33 PM

Alan, thanks a lot for your kind answer.
The subject of this thread, is related to the basic question of acquisition of knowledge and more specifically on knowledge about keris.
To do that, three elements are required :
1) information
2) experience
3) intelligence
You have the three, I have big gaps in the 2 first and may be am I boasting but I hope to have enough of the third.
Various ways exist to complete my lack of 1 and 2.
Good questioning is one way that enables to increase both 1 & 2.
But good questioning is difficult, in particular when you are short on N°1 and 2.
Before asking a question we then should ask ourselve :
Is this a content question ?
Is this question useful for the warung Kopi members or just for me ?
Is this question necessary or can the warung kopi members live without it?
Will this question bring results to the warung kopi members ?

I guess that this procedure would raise the level of questions but also probably reduce their number.

You said : Quote :"Once I asked one of them why he would not sit down and tell me everything he considered that I needed to know. He responded that when I had sufficient knowledge to ask the right questions the answers would come. I now consider this to be the best and most useful way in which to gain knowledge about the keris" unquote
I like very much the answer of your teacher (who did not teach) but made you think. I will try next time to raise the level of my questions !
Kind regards
Michel

A. G. Maisey · 2nd September 2007, 07:41 AM

Michel I would suggest that all that is necessary for a question to be raised is that an answer be required. I don't really think that it is necessary for us to examine the quality of the question, nor the necessity of its answer to other people. But I do think that as well as the classification type questions, some other matters dealing with historic, socio /cultural implications, or technical considerations could be opened.

David · 2nd September 2007, 03:26 PM

Thanks Alan. I couldn't agree with you more. Hopefully this thread will serve as a catalyst for exactly this type of indepth discussion.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em gentleman. Bring your questioning mind forth.

Jussi M. · 19th November 2009, 09:06 PM

A bump for a worthy thread.

Moshah · 19th November 2009, 11:56 PM

You have the point there, Alan.

But as you said initially, those "clearence kid" and junior clerks are the people who make the kingdom running. Without them, no documents are properly distributed and placed, henceforth the engineers will have trouble in their work, sooner or later.

And who is going to put so much documents in the tables of those IAs?

By then, I believe that all those mundane jobs of naming and classification is the brick and mortar of this forum. For people of your experience and knowledge, this definitely means a chores too bland and boring, but I believe we have many newcomers who thrilled to know the very basic thing (names, classification, dhapur, etc) of their newly beloved acquired hobby.

And that is the level of junior clerk.

We can't have everybody to come into the kingdom and be the engineer, for instance. So those junior collectors will learn from naming and categorising keris, dhapur recognition, pamor works, besi types and perhaps even tangguh. When they have possess enough knowledge, they will get mature and start addressing more challenging questions as they do. And by that time also they will start to produce quality theory and discussion.

If all the forumers started to produce challenging threads with complex discussions, then we will start seeing less newcomers and shun away younger people from keris world.

Let the junior clerk do what they need to do, and encourage them to do more than that, so that they can move up to senior clerk, and above, step by step.

31st August 2007, 05:58 PM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	about good questions related to the keris culture Alan, your posts are always interesting,they achieve their objectives and they force us to think. I reacted essentially because of your sentence : I think that possibly only one time during the period I have taken an interest in this discussion group have I seen evidence that somebody was really thinking outside the square, followed by David information, that that question was "the OM/ron dha theory". I have not understood the question but translated it for myself with about the same meaning as: if I were to come across a puzzling carving on a blade that depicted a singa barong wearing a tophat, what would be the most valuable information, the name of a keris with such a carving, or its meaning? In a brutal summary, this meant that the few thousands posts of warung kopi were almost wasted and that we were, with a few exceptions, a happy bunch of brainless junior clerks concentrating on a wrong approach to the keris. I am convince that that was not what you meant to say, but that is what I understood. The difference of level between your knowledge about Indonesia, the keris, its symbolism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, the geography of Indonesia and the related local cultures and my culture on the same subjects is so large that words may not carry the same messages and meaning. The question of "the OM/ron dha theory" is a good exemple. It was meaningless for me. Secondly if you and a few others are really studying and making research on the keris, it is certainly not the case of many members who are just trying to understand what is a keris, why is it so important, why isn't it a weapon only (or at all), why is it so decorated, complicated to produce, why so many pamor, dapur, areng, etc. As you have said in your last post, there are many ways of being a keris collector, each one of us looks for something different and excellence may not be the criteria of selection that can be afforded ! Finally Alan and David, (as I think David understood you better than most) if we do it wrong, can you help us, guide us, on the right way ? But please remember that there is a large gap of knowledge between your knowledges and mine (and may be of others) and if the complete Mahabharata has to be read and understood to be able to raise a question as the "singa barong with a tophat"(!) I at least will need some time! I remember Dietrich Drescher : there are many many more questions about keris, than answers. I think that your remarks achieved your objective: provoke thoughts. Thank you Alan. Kind and respectful regards Michel

1st September 2007, 02:33 PM	#3
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	The right questions Alan, thanks a lot for your kind answer. The subject of this thread, is related to the basic question of acquisition of knowledge and more specifically on knowledge about keris. To do that, three elements are required : 1) information 2) experience 3) intelligence You have the three, I have big gaps in the 2 first and may be am I boasting but I hope to have enough of the third. Various ways exist to complete my lack of 1 and 2. Good questioning is one way that enables to increase both 1 & 2. But good questioning is difficult, in particular when you are short on N°1 and 2. Before asking a question we then should ask ourselve : Is this a content question ? Is this question useful for the warung Kopi members or just for me ? Is this question necessary or can the warung kopi members live without it? Will this question bring results to the warung kopi members ? I guess that this procedure would raise the level of questions but also probably reduce their number. You said : Quote :"Once I asked one of them why he would not sit down and tell me everything he considered that I needed to know. He responded that when I had sufficient knowledge to ask the right questions the answers would come. I now consider this to be the best and most useful way in which to gain knowledge about the keris" unquote I like very much the answer of your teacher (who did not teach) but made you think. I will try next time to raise the level of my questions ! Kind regards Michel Last edited by Michel; 1st September 2007 at 02:59 PM.

31st August 2007, 11:57 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Michel, as I have already said, my intention was not to be harsh, not to be hypercritical, and certainly not to dismiss all posts except the one about the ron dha/OM theory as childish. However, if we were to go back through all the posts that have ever put up in our warung, or in the old forum, how many times would we come across evidence of a new idea? We can find plenty of basic questions, the answers to most of which are covered somewhere in the published literature. We can find plenty of questions in the nature of "what is it, and where does it come from?" I have no criticism of this type of thing, especially so as I realise only too well that the vast bulk of people who read and contribute to this discussion group are not really all that interested in what the Hindu priests of Majapahit had for breakfast. All these questions I think we can consider as being "in the square", that is, they are the normal, standard type of fare for general discussion amongst a group of people with a shared interest. However, consider this:- for how much longer can this discussion group survive by repetition of the same questions in different phrasing? We could become a "show and tell" group. Probably not too bad a thing for some of us, although I personally have reservations about this type of content. Or we can try taking a slightly more in depth approach to the subject of the keris. The two people whom I regard as my most important teachers of the keris never actually "taught" me anything. They would only answer a question if I raised that question. Once I asked one of them why he would not sit down and tell me everything he considered that I needed to know. He responded that when I had sufficient knowledge to ask the right questions the answers would come. I now consider this to be the best and most useful way in which to gain knowledge about the keris. I can align this approach to that used in my own profession, and I find that --- except for the window dressing--- it is the same. Imagine for a moment that this discussion group were to be centered around drag cars, or mountain bikes, or even fishing. Discussion about these subjects, and other subjects like these subjects, seems to consistently throw up ideas on how to improve something. The contributors to the discussion are actively thinking about the subject of discussion. Yes there is a basic difference between drag cars and keris:- one is an active subject, the other is passive. However, questions can be generated by both, once we take the point of view that the keris is not simply an object divorced from its origin and environment, and frozen in time. Michel, you have very clearly identified a number of questions that could be raised for discussion; a couple of these questions could be considered as "big questions", questions that may not have an answer that we can uncover. These would make wonderful questions to be raised for discussion. Keris discussion has been going on in this site for a number of years. A little while ago the Warung began as a specialist place for keris discussion. I think that we can now say that we are well established as the place to come to for those people who want to talk about the keris in the English language. The dues have been paid.If we are to move to the next level it I suggest that perhaps the time is ripe for some slightly more thought provoking questions to be raised.

2nd September 2007, 07:41 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,059	Michel I would suggest that all that is necessary for a question to be raised is that an answer be required. I don't really think that it is necessary for us to examine the quality of the question, nor the necessity of its answer to other people. But I do think that as well as the classification type questions, some other matters dealing with historic, socio /cultural implications, or technical considerations could be opened.

2nd September 2007, 03:26 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,238	Thanks Alan. I couldn't agree with you more. Hopefully this thread will serve as a catalyst for exactly this type of indepth discussion. Smoke 'em if you got 'em gentleman. Bring your questioning mind forth.

19th November 2009, 09:06 PM	#6
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	A bump for a worthy thread.

19th November 2009, 11:56 PM	#7
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	You have the point there, Alan. But as you said initially, those "clearence kid" and junior clerks are the people who make the kingdom running. Without them, no documents are properly distributed and placed, henceforth the engineers will have trouble in their work, sooner or later. And who is going to put so much documents in the tables of those IAs? By then, I believe that all those mundane jobs of naming and classification is the brick and mortar of this forum. For people of your experience and knowledge, this definitely means a chores too bland and boring, but I believe we have many newcomers who thrilled to know the very basic thing (names, classification, dhapur, etc) of their newly beloved acquired hobby. And that is the level of junior clerk. We can't have everybody to come into the kingdom and be the engineer, for instance. So those junior collectors will learn from naming and categorising keris, dhapur recognition, pamor works, besi types and perhaps even tangguh. When they have possess enough knowledge, they will get mature and start addressing more challenging questions as they do. And by that time also they will start to produce quality theory and discussion. If all the forumers started to produce challenging threads with complex discussions, then we will start seeing less newcomers and shun away younger people from keris world. Let the junior clerk do what they need to do, and encourage them to do more than that, so that they can move up to senior clerk, and above, step by step.