Flyssa - I finally got one!!

Emanuel · 14th August 2007, 10:56 PM

Hi Jim,

Desjardins offers too accounts from French officers regarding the use of the flyssa. I translated that particular passage...

“The majority of Kabyles were foot-soldiers (infantry). The rich men, Cheikhs and Maraboots, however, were mounted in battle. Berthelon describes an interesting maneuvre using the two types of troops. 'The cavalrymen take on horseback the foot-soldiers and drop them off at a chosen point. The foot-soldiers hide while the horsemen ride away in a simulated flight, drawing the attention of the enemy in an ambush by the foot-soldiers.' For such an ambush, the flyssa seems well suited. In this case, its thrust must be particularly fearsome. In the opinion of Colonel Lapene, 'This weapon is dangerous in estoc...The Kabyles rarely use it to slash unless it is for beheading. In that case they apply the in-curving part of the blade and pull strongly backwards in a drawcut.'” (Desjardins, 134)

Desjardins is reserved about the last bit, arguing that such a maneuvre is too complex and time-consuming to execute in battle. She concludes that the flyssa was used by foot-soldiers equally well against infrantry and cavalry. In the case of the latter point, a footnote relates an account in which foot-soldiers used the flyssa to attack the horses and take them out of combat. I can picture such an action but I would also consider a half-swording maneuvre. The flyssa-wielder could grasp the spine of the blade for support and swipe at the legs of the horses...pure speculation of course.

I do not understand why thrusting swords must necessarily have guards. Spears do not have guards and they are the ultimate thrusting weapon. If the weapon is furthermore used against unarmoured soft targets, I don't think there would be any slippage. The flare at the base of the flyssa blade could conceivably hold the hand on the grip well enough. Someone should sharpen their flyssa and thrust through a quarter of beef or porc, and report the result.

Now if the flyssa is a predominantly thrusting weapon, why have the recurved edge? The ogive is perfect for hacking and slashing, and it seems like too much of a bother if its purpose was merely for cutting heads. Now the seconf flyssa posted by Tatyana has practically no recurve...I therefore think that the accounts given by this officer or that generalize too much. One may have seen a kabyle using a straight variety, while another might have seen one with a curved piece. Their conclusions would thus be conflicting.

I'm sure that the grunts of the French troops knew quite well how Kabyles faught...too bad the low ranks never get their stories published.

If Kabyles were essentially Guerilla fighters ambushing their opponents, perhaps the use of cavalry (horse or camel) was not needed. I ran accross some paintings and prints of the various French battles against the Kabyles and Algerians, and although they showed infantry troops bearing flyssa's I haven't seen any mounted ones. I'll keep looking and I will try to scan the good bits.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Emanuel · 14th August 2007, 11:38 PM

I agree with Krockew about the weight and musculature. As an example I have this large, heavy tulwar with a thick blade. I found it very heavy when I got it some months ago, but since then I have been rootinely doing drills with it. It now feels much more wieldy in hand and I imagine that doing gatka for a couple of years would make it feel light as a feather.

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2007, 08:32 PM

Hi Emanuel,
Thank you so much for your well thought out responses and specifically answered observations to the questions I had posted.
I would also like to thank you for sharing the information and translated passage from the very important Desjardins work. That data gives us some provenanced detail on the manner of use of these swords as well as the combat strategy used, which does seem as if guerrilla style warfare was most likely for these warriors.
You have made some very valid points in speculating on the use of these swords and as you have indicated, possibly the guard was not essential if these were used as you suggested. Naturally more contemporary narratives would be helpful in evaluating probable manners of use, and I completely agree, the letters or comments of the front line troops would be the final word. Unfortunately, the stories these men carried were seldom ever published and did not survive for posterity, at least as far as we know at this point.

I very much appreciate the way you engage in discussion on various weapons and for your contributions in sharing translationed material from the Desjardines reference. We all benefit from such sharing of material as well as well placed observations suggesting plausible answers to questions concerning these weapons. Over the years many members have also presented perspective on known material in varying degree and made similar suggestions, and your compiling these threads on the other thread on these discussions really helps in comprehensive evaluation as we consider the status of research to date.

It is great to see such constructive discussion inspired by such efforts, as can be seen by the keen participation with contributions from Lew, Tatyana, Jeff , Kronckew and Teodor.

I know that I sense a much better perspective on the flyssa at this point and again, thanks very much everybody!!!

All very best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 15th August 2007, 08:51 PM

Always a pleasure Jim!
I'll keep the translations coming whenever I get the time.
And besides, the flyssa is my obsession

Cheers,
Emanuel

kronckew · 19th August 2007, 06:52 AM

just found this web page while looking for something else. in french, but nice illustrations!

Linky

note: for those of us, like me, who are not conversant with the french language, running the page thru the bablefish web page translator at this Linky is most enlightening. info on construction, patterning and tribal connections as well as derevation of the name and connections to yataghans.....

The Flissa term was given by French by deformation of Iflissen. Kabyles, as for them, seem to have used Sekkim or Iskin (knife), and, according to Carette (Study on Kabylie), the Arab term Khedama.

Jim McDougall · 23rd August 2007, 05:06 AM

Emanuel, your obsession is our very good fortune! please keep up the good work! and Kronckew, thank you again for your attention to details and sharing the links. The notes on the applicable terms are most helpful.
Thanks very much guys

All best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 23rd August 2007, 07:10 AM

you are welcome, jim.

just glad i can occasionally contribute occasionally amoungst the very high caliber of the membership and the moderators, and all their knowledge and professionalism...

14th August 2007, 10:56 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, Desjardins offers too accounts from French officers regarding the use of the flyssa. I translated that particular passage... “The majority of Kabyles were foot-soldiers (infantry). The rich men, Cheikhs and Maraboots, however, were mounted in battle. Berthelon describes an interesting maneuvre using the two types of troops. 'The cavalrymen take on horseback the foot-soldiers and drop them off at a chosen point. The foot-soldiers hide while the horsemen ride away in a simulated flight, drawing the attention of the enemy in an ambush by the foot-soldiers.' For such an ambush, the flyssa seems well suited. In this case, its thrust must be particularly fearsome. In the opinion of Colonel Lapene, 'This weapon is dangerous in estoc...The Kabyles rarely use it to slash unless it is for beheading. In that case they apply the in-curving part of the blade and pull strongly backwards in a drawcut.'” (Desjardins, 134) Desjardins is reserved about the last bit, arguing that such a maneuvre is too complex and time-consuming to execute in battle. She concludes that the flyssa was used by foot-soldiers equally well against infrantry and cavalry. In the case of the latter point, a footnote relates an account in which foot-soldiers used the flyssa to attack the horses and take them out of combat. I can picture such an action but I would also consider a half-swording maneuvre. The flyssa-wielder could grasp the spine of the blade for support and swipe at the legs of the horses...pure speculation of course. I do not understand why thrusting swords must necessarily have guards. Spears do not have guards and they are the ultimate thrusting weapon. If the weapon is furthermore used against unarmoured soft targets, I don't think there would be any slippage. The flare at the base of the flyssa blade could conceivably hold the hand on the grip well enough. Someone should sharpen their flyssa and thrust through a quarter of beef or porc, and report the result. Now if the flyssa is a predominantly thrusting weapon, why have the recurved edge? The ogive is perfect for hacking and slashing, and it seems like too much of a bother if its purpose was merely for cutting heads. Now the seconf flyssa posted by Tatyana has practically no recurve...I therefore think that the accounts given by this officer or that generalize too much. One may have seen a kabyle using a straight variety, while another might have seen one with a curved piece. Their conclusions would thus be conflicting. I'm sure that the grunts of the French troops knew quite well how Kabyles faught...too bad the low ranks never get their stories published. If Kabyles were essentially Guerilla fighters ambushing their opponents, perhaps the use of cavalry (horse or camel) was not needed. I ran accross some paintings and prints of the various French battles against the Kabyles and Algerians, and although they showed infantry troops bearing flyssa's I haven't seen any mounted ones. I'll keep looking and I will try to scan the good bits. Best regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 14th August 2007 at 11:34 PM.

19th August 2007, 06:52 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,243	just found this web page while looking for something else. in french, but nice illustrations! Linky note: for those of us, like me, who are not conversant with the french language, running the page thru the bablefish web page translator at this Linky is most enlightening. info on construction, patterning and tribal connections as well as derevation of the name and connections to yataghans..... The Flissa term was given by French by deformation of Iflissen. Kabyles, as for them, seem to have used Sekkim or Iskin (knife), and, according to Carette (Study on Kabylie), the Arab term Khedama. Last edited by kronckew; 19th August 2007 at 07:58 AM.

14th August 2007, 11:38 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I agree with Krockew about the weight and musculature. As an example I have this large, heavy tulwar with a thick blade. I found it very heavy when I got it some months ago, but since then I have been rootinely doing drills with it. It now feels much more wieldy in hand and I imagine that doing gatka for a couple of years would make it feel light as a feather.

15th August 2007, 08:32 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,501	Hi Emanuel, Thank you so much for your well thought out responses and specifically answered observations to the questions I had posted. I would also like to thank you for sharing the information and translated passage from the very important Desjardins work. That data gives us some provenanced detail on the manner of use of these swords as well as the combat strategy used, which does seem as if guerrilla style warfare was most likely for these warriors. You have made some very valid points in speculating on the use of these swords and as you have indicated, possibly the guard was not essential if these were used as you suggested. Naturally more contemporary narratives would be helpful in evaluating probable manners of use, and I completely agree, the letters or comments of the front line troops would be the final word. Unfortunately, the stories these men carried were seldom ever published and did not survive for posterity, at least as far as we know at this point. I very much appreciate the way you engage in discussion on various weapons and for your contributions in sharing translationed material from the Desjardines reference. We all benefit from such sharing of material as well as well placed observations suggesting plausible answers to questions concerning these weapons. Over the years many members have also presented perspective on known material in varying degree and made similar suggestions, and your compiling these threads on the other thread on these discussions really helps in comprehensive evaluation as we consider the status of research to date. It is great to see such constructive discussion inspired by such efforts, as can be seen by the keen participation with contributions from Lew, Tatyana, Jeff , Kronckew and Teodor. I know that I sense a much better perspective on the flyssa at this point and again, thanks very much everybody!!! All very best regards, Jim

15th August 2007, 08:51 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Always a pleasure Jim! I'll keep the translations coming whenever I get the time. And besides, the flyssa is my obsession Cheers, Emanuel

23rd August 2007, 05:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,501	Emanuel, your obsession is our very good fortune! please keep up the good work! and Kronckew, thank you again for your attention to details and sharing the links. The notes on the applicable terms are most helpful. Thanks very much guys All best regards, Jim

23rd August 2007, 07:10 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,243	you are welcome, jim. just glad i can occasionally contribute occasionally amoungst the very high caliber of the membership and the moderators, and all their knowledge and professionalism...