Feather Pattern welded blade

Dom · 14th August 2007, 10:11 AM

Good Day

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Has also been suggested the translation for " this sword is equal to the sword of the Great Ali", would be an arrogant saying for a smith to write and may be misinterpeted.

the translation given to me, is lightly différent, it's a Chiite epitaph;
nobody of other that Ali, and his sword "Al Faqar" (two-pointed magical sword)

in a sense ; as "best young man"

Regards

à +

Dom

rand · 14th August 2007, 03:51 PM

Hey Jim,

Thanks for your feedback. Because the blade appears to be entirely of Indian manufacture (my opinion) , I had dismissed the idea of presentation outside India. But that is certainly a possiblity, thats for pointing that out.

rand

rand · 14th August 2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Good Day

the translation given to me, is lightly différent, it's a Chiite epitaph;
nobody of other that Ali, and his sword "Al Faqar" (two-pointed magical sword)

in a sense ; as "best young man"

Regards

à +

Dom

Thanks for the info Dom,

Have a feeling you are most likely correct....

rand

rand · 14th August 2007, 04:02 PM

Hey Jim,

The clipped point is inusual, its more to the Russian or Dutch taste. When I first saw this sword about 16 years ago displayed about 16' above the floor, remember my first impression was that it may be Russian, only seeing the sword sheathed. Can't remember if I was able to see the blade before buying it.....

rand

Jeff D · 14th August 2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Jim,

The clipped point is inusual, its more to the Russian or Dutch taste. When I first saw this sword about 16 years ago displayed about 18' high, about 16' above the floor, remember my first impression was that it may be Russian, only seeing the sword sheathed. Can't remember if I was able to see the blade before buying it.....

rand

Hi Rand and Jim,

I have occasionally seen these points on British Mamelukes as well.

All the Best
Jeff

rand · 14th August 2007, 04:46 PM

Jeff,

Interesting point (bad pun)

or

I get the point (bad pun II, the sequel)

rand
could not resist some levity...

Jeff,

Your blade looks a though it may be a pattern weld? Is it? The chevron shaped designs on the chape are very interesting.

rand

rand · 14th August 2007, 06:41 PM

Posted this sabre in classified swap section but is owned by me so is OK to continue discussion. Wanted to open this sword for opinions whle I have it...

rand

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2007, 05:35 AM

You're very welcome Rand, I'm glad to be able to offer anything helpful on this very handsome sabre. There were many outfitters in India to provide dress and presentation weapons for British officers, many of them private makers and many such as Manson in Calcutta handled regulation patterns.
There were of course also such outfitters in Egypt and in Aden in Arabia.

Thank you Jeff for showing the clipped tip mameluke blade, which were indeed often seen on these. If not mistaken, this clipped point was favored on many German cavalry blades in the 18th century which of course ended up with British swords. In one reference book , "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Siefert (1962) in a line drawing group illustrating terms for varying blade forms, such a tip is referred to as a 'pandour point'. The association to these flamboyant auxiliary troops seems unclear, but the blade feature is known on some 18th century French blades as well.

With these instances considered, it does seem distinctly a European favored feature and not typically occurring on Indian, Arabian or Mamluk swords. Since 'damascus' blades were not produced in the European blade centers (as far as I know

that used this distinct clipped point, this blade is clearly an intriguing anomaly with interesting historical potential.

All best regards,'
Jim

14th August 2007, 03:51 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Presentation in Europe Hey Jim, Thanks for your feedback. Because the blade appears to be entirely of Indian manufacture (my opinion) , I had dismissed the idea of presentation outside India. But that is certainly a possiblity, thats for pointing that out. rand

14th August 2007, 04:02 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Clipped Point Hey Jim, The clipped point is inusual, its more to the Russian or Dutch taste. When I first saw this sword about 16 years ago displayed about 16' above the floor, remember my first impression was that it may be Russian, only seeing the sword sheathed. Can't remember if I was able to see the blade before buying it..... rand Last edited by rand; 14th August 2007 at 04:38 PM.

14th August 2007, 04:46 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Clip Point Jeff, Interesting point (bad pun) or I get the point (bad pun II, the sequel) rand could not resist some levity... Jeff, Your blade looks a though it may be a pattern weld? Is it? The chevron shaped designs on the chape are very interesting. rand Last edited by rand; 14th August 2007 at 06:37 PM.

14th August 2007, 06:41 PM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Posted in classified swap section Posted this sabre in classified swap section but is owned by me so is OK to continue discussion. Wanted to open this sword for opinions whle I have it... rand

15th August 2007, 05:35 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	You're very welcome Rand, I'm glad to be able to offer anything helpful on this very handsome sabre. There were many outfitters in India to provide dress and presentation weapons for British officers, many of them private makers and many such as Manson in Calcutta handled regulation patterns. There were of course also such outfitters in Egypt and in Aden in Arabia. Thank you Jeff for showing the clipped tip mameluke blade, which were indeed often seen on these. If not mistaken, this clipped point was favored on many German cavalry blades in the 18th century which of course ended up with British swords. In one reference book , "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Siefert (1962) in a line drawing group illustrating terms for varying blade forms, such a tip is referred to as a 'pandour point'. The association to these flamboyant auxiliary troops seems unclear, but the blade feature is known on some 18th century French blades as well. With these instances considered, it does seem distinctly a European favored feature and not typically occurring on Indian, Arabian or Mamluk swords. Since 'damascus' blades were not produced in the European blade centers (as far as I know that used this distinct clipped point, this blade is clearly an intriguing anomaly with interesting historical potential. All best regards,' Jim