THE REAL DEAL!

Bill M · 12th August 2007, 04:38 PM

Hi Rand,

Knew it was based on a comic book I was just hoping for more.

Still don't see this sword being valuable. "Interesting" scabbard and dress, but more of a curiosity.

Battara · 12th August 2007, 07:24 PM

So...what everyone is saying is that the Celts did not make it to Africa?

kronckew · 12th August 2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

So...what everyone is saying is that the Celts did not make it to Africa?

the celts didn't quite make it to africa. of course, the germanic tribe of Vandals did, occupying a large part of it, centered on carthage. likely using their own ruinic lettering. they surrendered eventually to the romans, who threw them out. some of them were given lands in galatia (a corruption of celt/gelt/gell/gael/gaul) where they mingled with the celtic natives. there are 'galatia' regions of spain, asia minor (turkey) and southern poland. all celts/gauls.

Battara · 14th August 2007, 12:46 AM

Though I meant it as a joke, I am fascinated by Galatia and other aspects of early Turkey.

kronckew · 14th August 2007, 06:42 AM

so am i, tho not necessarily the turkish bit in particular, my maternal grandmother was a galician from the northernmost province of austro-hungary, roughly halfway between Krakow and Wien. the other galicia is in the northern part of spain. celtic groups lived in a broad band north of the roman empire, the gaels, gauls or celts were ,of course, a cultured people with a rich history of justice, artistry and craftsmanship.

a warrior culture of the heroic individual that could not deal well with the organized synchronized soldiery of rome who were deathly afraid of them and thus had to destroy them; which they did by not only conquest but by absorption into the pax romana and by documenting them as 'uncivilized barbarians' they even tried to destroy their history...

Battara · 15th August 2007, 01:04 AM

Oh very, very true......

Also fascinating that you have Galatian blood.

I can only claim Scots and Irish (along with Cherokee and Filipino). No Galatian though.....

kronckew · 15th August 2007, 05:53 AM

My family is the typical irreverent american mix, english, irish, german, austro-hungarian (the 'Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria' granny), blackfoot, scots, italian, polish and a few more. family reunions are fun - especially the food sessions

we come in a variety of shapes, colours, politics, and religions (mostly christian and hebrew flavours, but not exclusively).

broadens my interest base.

also leads me to believe that there was a lot of cultural trade going on that is not recorded or admitted in history from the stone age at least. clovis flint points in europe and america, norse stone barrows & runes in maine, etc. people just like us with just the same emotions and goals, and our trading instincts must have done a lot more than we know. i'd love a tardis trip......

which segways me back on track, could a north african /sudanese weapon have made it's way from one end of the empire to the other? the men did, why not weapons. i'd bet there are rusty proto-kaskaran regional weapon items out there waiting for discovery, or unrecognised. i'd also bet they did not have lslamic arabic etchings & did not look like the modern kaskara which initiated this amusing and informative discussion.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2007, 08:09 PM

Although this might have been just another example of blatant misidentification as often seen on many items that appear on ebay it evidences the unbelievable unfamiliarity with weapons by the general public. It seems with the computer search potential that a simple effort would at least give people the idea of where to look further.

While obviously the description exceeds the basic fantasy material, it is interesting to see one of these Nilotic kaskaras, and thankfully it actually went for a reasonable price without a frenzy thinking this was Excalibur!!

I have often wondered if these crocodile hide covered weapons actually were mounted contemporarily with some sort of totemic value observed by tribal warriors, or whether these were produced to satisfy curious tourists of the post-Mahdist period. In efforts to discuss the use of crocodile hide and the possibilities of such association over the years, the results were consistantly disappointing, and in some cases produced unwarranted negativity.

In discussions with one young man who had come from Darfur, he did note that use of the totemic associations with feared animals was indeed in some degree practiced among warriors and would explain such use of crocodile etc. That is of course just one note from one person, though well qualified.I have seen examples of kaskara mounted much like this but with much older and formidable blades, suggesting mounting of 19th c. The example I refer to had hilt mounts consistant with those found on Darfur weapons (Briggs).The blade on this example seems more likely 20th c.

While continued discussion on this topic would be interesting and always hopefully productive, I realize it is as noted, unlikely. Regardless, I thought I would add these notes for anyone interested in furthering what we know about these intriguing examples of kaskara.

With best regards,
Jim

14th August 2007, 06:42 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	so am i, tho not necessarily the turkish bit in particular, my maternal grandmother was a galician from the northernmost province of austro-hungary, roughly halfway between Krakow and Wien. the other galicia is in the northern part of spain. celtic groups lived in a broad band north of the roman empire, the gaels, gauls or celts were ,of course, a cultured people with a rich history of justice, artistry and craftsmanship. a warrior culture of the heroic individual that could not deal well with the organized synchronized soldiery of rome who were deathly afraid of them and thus had to destroy them; which they did by not only conquest but by absorption into the pax romana and by documenting them as 'uncivilized barbarians' they even tried to destroy their history... Last edited by kronckew; 14th August 2007 at 07:09 AM.

12th August 2007, 04:38 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hi Rand, Knew it was based on a comic book I was just hoping for more. Still don't see this sword being valuable. "Interesting" scabbard and dress, but more of a curiosity.

12th August 2007, 07:24 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	So...what everyone is saying is that the Celts did not make it to Africa?

14th August 2007, 12:46 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	Though I meant it as a joke, I am fascinated by Galatia and other aspects of early Turkey.

15th August 2007, 01:04 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	Oh very, very true...... Also fascinating that you have Galatian blood. I can only claim Scots and Irish (along with Cherokee and Filipino). No Galatian though.....

15th August 2007, 05:53 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	My family is the typical irreverent american mix, english, irish, german, austro-hungarian (the 'Kingdom of Galicia and Lodomeria' granny), blackfoot, scots, italian, polish and a few more. family reunions are fun - especially the food sessions we come in a variety of shapes, colours, politics, and religions (mostly christian and hebrew flavours, but not exclusively). broadens my interest base. also leads me to believe that there was a lot of cultural trade going on that is not recorded or admitted in history from the stone age at least. clovis flint points in europe and america, norse stone barrows & runes in maine, etc. people just like us with just the same emotions and goals, and our trading instincts must have done a lot more than we know. i'd love a tardis trip...... which segways me back on track, could a north african /sudanese weapon have made it's way from one end of the empire to the other? the men did, why not weapons. i'd bet there are rusty proto-kaskaran regional weapon items out there waiting for discovery, or unrecognised. i'd also bet they did not have lslamic arabic etchings & did not look like the modern kaskara which initiated this amusing and informative discussion.

12th August 2007, 08:09 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Although this might have been just another example of blatant misidentification as often seen on many items that appear on ebay it evidences the unbelievable unfamiliarity with weapons by the general public. It seems with the computer search potential that a simple effort would at least give people the idea of where to look further. While obviously the description exceeds the basic fantasy material, it is interesting to see one of these Nilotic kaskaras, and thankfully it actually went for a reasonable price without a frenzy thinking this was Excalibur!! I have often wondered if these crocodile hide covered weapons actually were mounted contemporarily with some sort of totemic value observed by tribal warriors, or whether these were produced to satisfy curious tourists of the post-Mahdist period. In efforts to discuss the use of crocodile hide and the possibilities of such association over the years, the results were consistantly disappointing, and in some cases produced unwarranted negativity. In discussions with one young man who had come from Darfur, he did note that use of the totemic associations with feared animals was indeed in some degree practiced among warriors and would explain such use of crocodile etc. That is of course just one note from one person, though well qualified.I have seen examples of kaskara mounted much like this but with much older and formidable blades, suggesting mounting of 19th c. The example I refer to had hilt mounts consistant with those found on Darfur weapons (Briggs).The blade on this example seems more likely 20th c. While continued discussion on this topic would be interesting and always hopefully productive, I realize it is as noted, unlikely. Regardless, I thought I would add these notes for anyone interested in furthering what we know about these intriguing examples of kaskara. With best regards, Jim