Origins of Shepherds' Knives and Karakulaks

[TVV]

Erlikhan, you are right, there was a flag in the Ilinden uprisal, which had 16 beams instead of 8. The official flag of the Krushevo Republic was black and red, however, and there is very little to indicate that the ancient Macedonian symbols were held in high esteem. I very highly doubt that the akkulak pictured is connected to the 1903 rebellion, despite how romantic such a reltionship could be, and this is a fairly common mark on karakulaks found in nowadays Bulgaria. It is extremely unlikely that they are all Macedonian, and one needs to keep in mind that Macedonian nationalism is a recent and quite amusing phenomenon - some historiographers in Skopie would go great lengths in their quest for legitimizing a nation that did not exist 50 years ago.
I agree that the gap between the acient Greek and Thracian swords with an S-shaped blade and the Ottoman yataghans from the 16th century is huge, and it puzzles me a lot, how the yataghan appeared out of the blue, with no ancestors at all. If the official theory, which maintains that this shape was introduced to Central Asia by Alexander the Great's armies is true, why are not there any Central Asian finds of such blades, other than (maybe) the Nepalese khukris? Or maybe they are, but I just do not know about them, and this is what I like to find out, for there is evolution in blade shapes and nothing apperas out of itself, with nothing to precede it.

[erlikhan]

Teodor, I do not favor that theory Alexander the great - introduction of yataghans to central Asia. The same big gap there like in Balkans,no doubt. No sample or record.Yataghan is practically an infantry arm which I dont think primarily mounted warriors of central Asia would like so much and continue the tradition for 1700 years or so. They preferred arrows,bows,javelins and long sabers . I wonder if there is any certain,satisfactory yataghan record before Suleyman the magnificent's beautiful yataghan. I have always considered it very interesting that the most beautiful and extraordinary yataghan sample known is also by far the earliest yataghan that is known to exist !

[TVV]

I could not agree more with you. I brought up the machaira hypothesis not because I like it - there is lack of evidence, but because I have always had problems with the Alexander the Great theory - there is not much to support it either.

[Yannis]

The "separatist" theory goes very far.
The Vergina Star discovered in 1977 so there is no way to be used like identity symbol of anyone before that.

[erlikhan]

I wonder what is funny about the word 'separatist'? Were they not getting armed and fighting Ottomans to separate from them? Or the problem is "Macedonians are not a seperate ethnical people, so they don't have the right to be separatist"?

If a symbol has existed widely on armors, buildings, etc. and especially thousands of coins from a definite area as Teodor's picture shows, it doesn't have to wait to be found on a royal stuff underground, for the permission to be claimed by any people/ organization. It is very interesting that how Macedonia and its neighbors all have too different points of views on the subject,each opposite of all others,as far as I know. With a short web search you can find sites with amazingly different points of views like http://www.makedonija.info/info.html

[ariel]

Folks, you are skating on a very thin ice! Some of our moderators are presumably still in the slammer and the coast might be temporarily clear, but I would much rather learn about the origins of yataghans than about national grievances

[TVV]

You are right Ariel, but I hope this thread does not get locked, because if every thread about Balkan weapons gets locked any time we have a polite historical discussion, we will never learn anything about Balkan weapons, and I am sure you will agree there is relatively little known about them compared to weapons from other areas of the world. I and Yannis were far from trying to instigate an argument on Macedonian history - we just wanted to point out that the idea that FYROM is a descendant and successor of ancient Macedonia is a fairly recent one, and therefore it is a little bit of a stretch to try to find a direct relationship between ancient Macedonian symbols and the weapons of freedom fighters of various ethnicities more than a 100 years ago. As far as the Ilinden Uprising is concerned, it was organized by VMORO, the initials of which stand for Вътрешна Македоно-Одринска Революционна Организация, or Inner Macedono-Adrianople Revolutionary Organization, and its members had the goal of liberating not only Macedonia, but also Eastern Thrace, and not because they wanted to resurrect ancient Macedonia or Thrace (say, the Odrysian Kingdom), but because these were the terriotries initially liberated after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 and later returned to the Ottoman Empire after the Berlin Congress. I am attaching the flag of the rebels from Ohrid, which contains no ancient solar symbols whatsoever, to hopefully put an end to the idea that the Ilinden rebels had the 8-beamed Sun as one of their symbols. All this I am doing not to prove a nationalistic point, but just to show how the stamp on the akkulak in the beginning of the thread is extremely unlikely to be connected to the Macedonian freedom movement.
If there is indeed a link between the ancient Thracian and Macedonian symbol as seen on coins, and the 19th century karakulaks' stamps, I think it is what Jim suggested - an atavistic symbol, which survived as a part of the Thracian and Macedonian culture, gradually losing its meaning and becoming a traditional decorative element. I will be reapeating myself, but let me explain once again - the reason I brought up the topic was an attempt to explore alternative theories for the origin of yataghans and karakulaks, hopefully finding the missing link between the kopis and the first yataghans, or at least an explanation why such link has not been found so far. And I really, really hope this thread remains open, so that we can continue the discussion about the obscure origin of these weapons, which are my favorites.