keris and spirit

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.

To the contrary, i do not believe this is a case of East vs West as all. That's a cop-out. Afterall, you ran into this very same problem with this discussion on a forum which is maintained and supported mostly by Easterners. I do agree that Westerners (especially we Americans ) live in a "fast food culture" and want everything now (or even yesterday). And we see how this has effected our approach to spirituality especially with the commercialization of Eastern thought through so-called "New Age" spiritual movements. HOWEVER....this debate that is causing trouble here (as it did elsewhere) is not about the attainment of some great spiritual wisdom. I agree that sort of knowledge needs to come slowly, with much hard work by the aspirant on the path to spiritual enlightenment. There are never any easy answers there or easy paths. But what we are debating here is a question of history, plan and simple. A theory of origin has been presented which flows against the general concensus of the history of the keris. This does not make it necessarily wrong, but it does mean that many questions will naturally be asked (by both East and West) seeking supportive evidence for this contrary theory. To act as if one holds such information, yet to refuse to release it is to me nothing but the height of arrogance, unless of course, there really is no support for this theory at all and it is all just empty hot wind. Sorry Sepokal, i do not see the "irony" in asking someone to give some proof for their controversial theory. You say "there is no profit for me" revealling this information says much about you. How about gratitude and respect of the community? Certainly if you can prove your theory it would be a benefit to the entire keris collecting world. Where is the "profit" in not releasing the information you claim to know?

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

Not as logical as you might believe. AFAIK all of the earliest keris were straight blades, not wavy and they had no pamor patterns to speak of. If Islamic Aryans brought the keris to Malaysia and Indonesia one might wonder why they didn't make wavy damasced blades from the start.
I may also be wrong about this since it is not my area of study, but isn't Damascene blade work a completely different process from keris making?

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

I’m looking at what are the after effects of post Tsunami in this thread; challenge one self to prove that given comments are true and relevant. I really see no point continuing with the non-stop harping of that someone. Let’s continue and move on….

Sepokal quoted: “Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan (rituals) that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" (signs) through cracks.”

I’m wondering if this concept applies to some Javanese keris. What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter.

Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate?

Thanks & regards,
Hana

P.S – The term “Amalan” can be referred to habitual or religious rituals.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter.

In Javanese keris term, people call it as "pamengkang jagat" (the world stretcher). What does it signify? I think Mr Boedhy Aditya knows better than me about this. But, in keris making term, a crack is actually a fail in forging process. (Alan knows much better than us about it). And people take the positive side of the fail, by the positive meaning of it.

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate?

It might be not a correct expression of me, in English. (Sorry for my In-glish, Indonesian English). What I wanted to tell you is, that modern people usually prefer to care the outer appearance of kerises. And not the "inner quality" (spiritual meaning, and so on) of his keris or kerises...

Ganjawulung

[David]

In the supposed words of the great psycho-analyst Sigmund Freud, "...and sometmes a cigar is just a cigar."
Cracks in the blade of a keris are forging flaws, but as Ganja suggest, people like to make the best of any given situation so stories start up to give special providence to error. The bottom line, of course, is what you choose to believe. If you believe a crack in your blade will brimg you good fortune it probably will.
Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm. But i agree that we should move on. And thank you BTW, for attempting to explain a few of the terms that others left untranslated.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Hana,

From the Buginese & Javanese's perspectives, the cracks are just forging flaws like Pak Ganja & David had said earlier. And as you mentioned, to the Malays, it's different ball game altogether .

You know what they (the Malays) say, the cracks are actually the channels that your fragrant oils can seep into the body of the keris, thus feeding the spirit...... .

David, re the cause of the "problem" I faced in another forum, it's nothing like this at all. Contrary to what you believed, it was caused by them insulting my personal belief / ways in treating keris that contained spirits. To them, the traditional ways (including smoking your keris) was blasphemous to Islam. These ppl could have misinformed you via pm etc thus your infering that I was the trouble maker...

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

David, re the cause of the "problem" I faced in another forum, it's nothing like this at all. Contrary to what you believed, it was caused by them insulting my personal belief / ways in treating keris that contained spirits. To them, the traditional ways (including smoking your keris) was blasphemous to Islam. These ppl could have misinformed you via pm etc thus your infering that I was the trouble maker...

No worries Penangsang, i have made no assumptions about who was responsible for the problems on the other forum and frankly don't care. My concerns are with what takes place here and so far i have no problems with the way you have carried yourself on this forum. I will also reiterate that i will not tolerate attacks of personal spiritual beliefs so please feel free to discuss them here if it is your will.
BTW, just for the record i have received no PMs in regards to that thread bon the other forum and i have not read the thread either so i will pass no judgement on it either way.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

From the Buginese & Javanese's perspectives, the cracks are just forging flaws like Pak Ganja & David had said earlier. And as you mentioned, to the Malays, it's different ball game altogether .

You know what they (the Malays) say, the cracks are actually the channels that your fragrant oils can seep into the body of the keris, thus feeding the spirit......

Keris with "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sor-soran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position) usually found in kerises with pamor "adeg" (vertical stripes) or in pamor "sada sak ler" (one piece of palm leaf rib). And the crack is usually in the middle of the sor-soran, in vertical position.

This kind of keris with "pamengkang jagat" is much pursued by Javanese. Although this crack is in fact a forging flaw, some people believe that "pamengkang jagat" is good for "pursuing destination" (for instance, love...). And sometimes, this flaw even become the center of attention of a keris blade. Sometimes, quite artistic too... That's my humble opinion. I would like to hear Mr Mans or Mr Boedhy Aditya on this...

Ganjawulung

[HanaChu69]

Greetings keris experts,

Ganjawulung – Thank you for the clarification. I’m glad you touch on "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sorsoran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position). Appreciate the brief description however; I would not want to impose on others to provide the information. I feel it’s their rights and if they are reluctant to impart knowledge for I will respect their decision.

I’m fortunate to gain knowledge through networking with various people (don’t want to mention names) in this forum but often with confidentiality as a basis. Being ethical, I will ask permission to release information for sharing but was often rejected. That’s another reason why I prefer to keep mum and ask for referencing links.

David – Quoted: “Hana, i don't believe there has been a Tsunami here. This thread remained much too civil and cool headed throughout (thank you all) to be granted such a devastating title. No one is dead and the seas are relatively calm”.

Why I use “Tsunami” to contextualize what has happened? It’s not an exaggeration but more precise in my clarification. Here’s my observation; Tsunami attack = Sepokal posting, hitting many countries = nationality of forum members, chaotic people find ways to run for their lives = chaotic various members ready to reply responses, many dead = Thank god only one member stop penning, Tsunami ended and seas resume its calmness = Sepokal stop his replies and the other members started to lax.

BTW, I don’t mind helping with the translation as I’m into languages. I’m not an expert but can understand English, Malay, Bahasa Indonesia, Baweanese, Mandarin, Hokkien and Cantonese dialects. I’m currently still learning Javanese and French.

Penangsang – Please do not be disheartened with some negative responses. Remember my ex-colleague who loves to use this comment: “To assume is the mother of all **** up” (sorry for the foul language used). So the air is now clear and you can start beginning afresh.

Kind regards,
Hana

P.S – I believe in “Behaviour breed Behaviour” so be kind and respectful always…

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Keris with "pamengkang jagat" (a crack in sor-soran or the base of the keris blade -- in vertical position) usually found in kerises with pamor "adeg" (vertical stripes) or in pamor "sada sak ler" (one piece of palm leaf rib). And the crack is usually in the middle of the sor-soran, in vertical position.

This kind of keris with "pamengkang jagat" is much pursued by Javanese. Although this crack is in fact a forging flaw, some people believe that "pamengkang jagat" is good for "pursuing destination" (for instance, love...). And sometimes, this flaw even become the center of attention of a keris blade. Sometimes, quite artistic too... That's my humble opinion. I would like to hear Mr Mans or Mr Boedhy Aditya on this...

Ganjawulung

Gonjo and kerislovers,

I have a keris with "pamengkang jagad = the world stretcher [?]". Or if it is not a keris with the world stretcher, it is a keris with "rondo beser". David and Gonjo, please translate to foruminities a word "rondo beser". Personally, I prefer a word "rondo beser" because its dapur/shape is sombro (Sombro is a name of female empu/kerissmith).

Here is the story of my Sombro with "rondo beser". Twice, I brought that keris to a monthly forum which attended by kerislovers in my hometown Djokja. What did some of them give comment on that keris? side effect of a flaw forging as Gonjo said in this forum.

On the other ocassion, I showed it to kerislovers who did not now about forging technique. In their opinion, this sombro was a very good keris because of extraordinary unseen power. One of them offered me unbelievable dowry (price) for that keris. In short, the keris is still mine now.

Seemingly, there is two different point of view on either "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser". One view tends to focus on forging technique whilst the other one tends to focus on the spiritual aspect. In my own opinion, these two different views can not compared each other because the difference comes since the beginning.

I just remember a fiction film "lord of the ring". I don't remember in detail about the broken sword which finally reforging successfully by so and so.

Does anyone of you have a keris with "pamengkang jagad" or "rondo beser"? Please share the pictures to our beloved kerislovers for enriching knowledge of keris by watching images. I am eager to share with you the pictures of my sombro with "the world stretcher or rondo beser=...." soon after I can afford a new digicam. Sigh... I lost my digicam last month.

warm regards,
Usmen