keris and spirit

rahman · 19th July 2007, 01:42 AM

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

David · 19th July 2007, 03:15 AM

I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so.

I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that.

PenangsangII · 19th July 2007, 03:33 AM

Salam to all keris afficionados,

If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please

.

David · 19th July 2007, 04:03 AM

No one is asking anyone to do any field research. You can state any theory that you wish, but if you want it to be taken seriously i am afraid that you must provide at least some credible sources to support your theory. This is not necessarily "scientific" evidence, it is merely providing viable support for an idea that you expect other interested and often knowledgable students to take seriously. I could just as easily suggest that the origins of the keris lie with visiting space aliens from the Rigel 5 star system (yes, it's the dreaded Space Alien Theory

). Without providing any support for this far-fetched theory it is no more or less viable then your own.

David · 19th July 2007, 04:25 AM

Well thank you Sepokal, for you time here. Perhaps you have told Rahman things in the past, but really you have told me and others here absolutely nothing but empty theory. Nor have you answered my repeated request for translation of terms. I like to think that i have an open mind and frankly i don't know enough about keris (or anything for that matter) to be all that certain about origins or anything else. But i certainly am not about to buy into any theory merely on your's or anybody else's say so. Proof will never come, but if you are unable to make your theory seem logical to me why would i choose to accept it. And if you don't care if anyone gives any credence to your theory the why do you bother to state it to begin with?
You say this forum is not the place to unveil your great knowledge. Well then, what are you doing here? Why are you wasting our time then? Thank you for you contribution, however meager it might have been and may you find the right place where you great knowledge will be unquestioned and you can always be supeior and correct. We obviously are not worthy.

PenangsangII · 19th July 2007, 05:03 AM

Dear David,

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.

Mr Sepokal,

Your wish will be my command. I promise not to quote your name again without permission, but I hope you reconsider stopping your inputs here

.

Mr Rahman,

I do not want to be drawn to yet another old debate from another forum. If you could check again in the kampungnet thread that you had dumped to the bin, I believe you would understand what Sepokal (sorry for using your name again) had said about the possible Islamic origin of the keris.

Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

Alam Shah · 19th July 2007, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

... Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

Actually, we have covered this sometime back... do read this article, written by Mr Alan Maisey... [ link ]. I suggest bro Sepokal, you'll do likewise... do give it some thought, afterwhich, we can continue discussion if you like.

Bro Sepokal, as for the "Majapahit" / Sajen keris examples... do check it out [ here ].

PenangsangII · 19th July 2007, 05:50 AM

Bro AlamShah,

I read Alan's excellent article a few times since at least 2 years ago...and I think it's very intelligent observation, moreover, the writer is himself an empu. I'll go thru it again, and again.....

What I have to offer is the possibility of another origin, or maybe even parallel origin of the keris. Please consider this, people of Nusantara are strong followers of Sunni sect, but what's the deal with cleaning up (merawat) pusakas esp keris during 10 Muharram every year?

HanaChu69 · 19th July 2007, 05:54 AM

Good day everyone,

I apologized if I have created the hassle for referencing but I find them useful. I believe some articles in the internet are not 100% true. As such, this forum may be of some help. Gone were those days where old generation relates tales of their ancestral history to passed down to the future generation? Everyone is so busy nowadays and I’m in that sorry situation right now. How I wish my late father kept a journal for me to get some insight.

Frankly, I like the visual information exchanged in the thread “Majapahit Revisited” between Ganjawulung and Pak Alan. I personally feel that factual evidence shown through books is much appreciated for I may not be able to source them here in Singapore.

Sepokal – After our email info sharing session on Malay Keris philosophy, I thought I could dig some info from you to share in this forum as well. But it is most unlikely possible now due to the above reasons. I hope you will continue your research on Malay Keris and their history. I will be honor to vet through your draft manuscript before publishing them. You will receive my utmost confidentiality upon the frank opinion given. Good luck on your journey in search of wisdom and truth, my friend!

Kind regards,
Hana

P.S - Penangsang, you, high school graduate?? You're jesting lah..

David · 19th July 2007, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.

To the contrary, i do not believe this is a case of East vs West as all. That's a cop-out. Afterall, you ran into this very same problem with this discussion on a forum which is maintained and supported mostly by Easterners. I do agree that Westerners (especially we Americans

) live in a "fast food culture" and want everything now (or even yesterday). And we see how this has effected our approach to spirituality especially with the commercialization of Eastern thought through so-called "New Age" spiritual movements. HOWEVER....this debate that is causing trouble here (as it did elsewhere) is not about the attainment of some great spiritual wisdom. I agree that sort of knowledge needs to come slowly, with much hard work by the aspirant on the path to spiritual enlightenment. There are never any easy answers there or easy paths. But what we are debating here is a question of history, plan and simple. A theory of origin has been presented which flows against the general concensus of the history of the keris. This does not make it necessarily wrong, but it does mean that many questions will naturally be asked (by both East and West) seeking supportive evidence for this contrary theory. To act as if one holds such information, yet to refuse to release it is to me nothing but the height of arrogance, unless of course, there really is no support for this theory at all and it is all just empty hot wind. Sorry Sepokal, i do not see the "irony" in asking someone to give some proof for their controversial theory. You say "there is no profit for me" revealling this information says much about you. How about gratitude and respect of the community? Certainly if you can prove your theory it would be a benefit to the entire keris collecting world. Where is the "profit" in not releasing the information you claim to know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

Not as logical as you might believe. AFAIK all of the earliest keris were straight blades, not wavy and they had no pamor patterns to speak of. If Islamic Aryans brought the keris to Malaysia and Indonesia one might wonder why they didn't make wavy damasced blades from the start.
I may also be wrong about this since it is not my area of study, but isn't Damascene blade work a completely different process from keris making?

HanaChu69 · 20th July 2007, 03:41 AM

Greetings keris experts,

I’m looking at what are the after effects of post Tsunami in this thread; challenge one self to prove that given comments are true and relevant. I really see no point continuing with the non-stop harping of that someone. Let’s continue and move on….

Sepokal quoted: “Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan (rituals) that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" (signs) through cracks.”

I’m wondering if this concept applies to some Javanese keris. What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter.

Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate?

Thanks & regards,
Hana

P.S – The term “Amalan” can be referred to habitual or religious rituals.

sepokal · 19th July 2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

Dear Mr Rahman,

May I ask, since when was it that historian claim absolutely that the origin of Keris is not of Islamic origin? They merely deduce or rather in Scientific term, infered that Keris originated from Hinduism, through Candi Sukor. Now, all this was based on them studying Javanese Keris. Are we that naive to not know that the Malays too have their own version of Keris during those times? Or is it just because, we want information to be placed on our lap rather than to do research and dig deep?

This forum is not a place for me to unveil all the knowledge that I've gained through my many years of travelling and meeting with many people and reading books. I've given the information. I've got nothing to prove to anyone, at all. There is no profit for me to reveil those information to you. Nevertheless, I did reveil those information to you, long ago, but ironically, you want me to prove it. On a normal circumstance, I would, but now, I think, I won't. Do us a favour Mr Rahman, this information was known to you long ago. Have you made any research on this (plus doa) or do you expect things to just fall onto your lap? The burden to prove about Keris originated from Islam is never a burden to me now Mr Rahman. I'm passed that phase, long ago. I'll leave the burden to you and others, I guess

...or rather, I would advise, just stick to what you know, Keris and Hinduism...

Learned discussion requires you to do research Mr Rahman from what might be, to what actually is.

Oh by the way, do any Javanese keris have Dapor Sepokal like that of Bugis? Look at the shape, does it remind you of any "huruf" from Al Quran?

Allah Hafiz and Regards,
sepokal toh putih

p.s
Erm, I don't intend to do any more forum, so thanks. Penangsang...hehehe...stop mentioning my name...Hana...you know where to find me...hehehe

19th July 2007, 05:54 AM	#9
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Good day everyone, I apologized if I have created the hassle for referencing but I find them useful. I believe some articles in the internet are not 100% true. As such, this forum may be of some help. Gone were those days where old generation relates tales of their ancestral history to passed down to the future generation? Everyone is so busy nowadays and I’m in that sorry situation right now. How I wish my late father kept a journal for me to get some insight. Frankly, I like the visual information exchanged in the thread “Majapahit Revisited” between Ganjawulung and Pak Alan. I personally feel that factual evidence shown through books is much appreciated for I may not be able to source them here in Singapore. Sepokal – After our email info sharing session on Malay Keris philosophy, I thought I could dig some info from you to share in this forum as well. But it is most unlikely possible now due to the above reasons. I hope you will continue your research on Malay Keris and their history. I will be honor to vet through your draft manuscript before publishing them. You will receive my utmost confidentiality upon the frank opinion given. Good luck on your journey in search of wisdom and truth, my friend! Kind regards, Hana P.S - Penangsang, you, high school graduate?? You're jesting lah.. Last edited by HanaChu69; 19th July 2007 at 08:22 AM.

19th July 2007, 01:42 AM	#1
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin. Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him. He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims. That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

19th July 2007, 03:15 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so. I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that.

19th July 2007, 03:33 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Salam to all keris afficionados, If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please .

19th July 2007, 04:03 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	No one is asking anyone to do any field research. You can state any theory that you wish, but if you want it to be taken seriously i am afraid that you must provide at least some credible sources to support your theory. This is not necessarily "scientific" evidence, it is merely providing viable support for an idea that you expect other interested and often knowledgable students to take seriously. I could just as easily suggest that the origins of the keris lie with visiting space aliens from the Rigel 5 star system (yes, it's the dreaded Space Alien Theory ). Without providing any support for this far-fetched theory it is no more or less viable then your own.

19th July 2007, 04:25 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Well thank you Sepokal, for you time here. Perhaps you have told Rahman things in the past, but really you have told me and others here absolutely nothing but empty theory. Nor have you answered my repeated request for translation of terms. I like to think that i have an open mind and frankly i don't know enough about keris (or anything for that matter) to be all that certain about origins or anything else. But i certainly am not about to buy into any theory merely on your's or anybody else's say so. Proof will never come, but if you are unable to make your theory seem logical to me why would i choose to accept it. And if you don't care if anyone gives any credence to your theory the why do you bother to state it to begin with? You say this forum is not the place to unveil your great knowledge. Well then, what are you doing here? Why are you wasting our time then? Thank you for you contribution, however meager it might have been and may you find the right place where you great knowledge will be unquestioned and you can always be supeior and correct. We obviously are not worthy.

19th July 2007, 05:03 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear David, This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short. Mr Sepokal, Your wish will be my command. I promise not to quote your name again without permission, but I hope you reconsider stopping your inputs here . Mr Rahman, I do not want to be drawn to yet another old debate from another forum. If you could check again in the kampungnet thread that you had dumped to the bin, I believe you would understand what Sepokal (sorry for using your name again) had said about the possible Islamic origin of the keris. Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

19th July 2007, 05:50 AM	#8
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Bro AlamShah, I read Alan's excellent article a few times since at least 2 years ago...and I think it's very intelligent observation, moreover, the writer is himself an empu. I'll go thru it again, and again..... What I have to offer is the possibility of another origin, or maybe even parallel origin of the keris. Please consider this, people of Nusantara are strong followers of Sunni sect, but what's the deal with cleaning up (merawat) pusakas esp keris during 10 Muharram every year?

20th July 2007, 03:41 AM	#11
HanaChu69 Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 29	Greetings keris experts, I’m looking at what are the after effects of post Tsunami in this thread; challenge one self to prove that given comments are true and relevant. I really see no point continuing with the non-stop harping of that someone. Let’s continue and move on…. Sepokal quoted: “Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan (rituals) that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" (signs) through cracks.” I’m wondering if this concept applies to some Javanese keris. What does a crack signify? Has it got to do with the spirit of the keris? I have one Javanese patrem that has two separate cracks at the sorsoran area. I’m not sure about the significance of it. I sure hope someone can confer sound knowledge in this matter. Ganjawulung – I’ve spotted one sentence in your reply on the “Patrem” thread dated 23 May 2007 which I find very interesting: “Spiritual attitude surround kerises. That's the "bobot" or inner quality of the keris world. Something that is neglected by mostly modern people”. Is it possible for you to elaborate? Thanks & regards, Hana P.S – The term “Amalan” can be referred to habitual or religious rituals.