Flyssa - I finally got one!!

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2007, 04:52 AM

Emanuel,
One of the things that has remained puzzling to me on the flyssa (that is one of the things

)is the strange three dimensional hourglass shape seen in the motif on the blades of some flyssas. I wish I had an illustration, possibly anyone out there with flyssas might have one with this figure.

Years ago there were the occasional discussions on the flyssa and this topic came up, and nothing conclusive was ever revealed. The only suggestion that seemed to make sense was that this somehow represented a drum. The only drum I could come up with that had this unusual shape was the so called 'talking drum' form used by West African tribes. While these tribes included the Hausa, who of course also traversed the Sahara and were closely associated with the Tuareg, it seems odd at how this distinct geometric 'drum' shape would come up on a Kabyle weapon.

It is true that the Tuareg tribal units included a political unit controlled by a 'drum chief' whose authority was symbolized by a drum, and the Tuareg were, as the Kabyle, Berber, however would this symbolism have carried into Kabyle motif?

Can anyone come up with a photo of a flyssa with one of these in the blade motif, and any ideas on the plausibility of the drum being what is represented in the motif?

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2007, 06:21 PM

I wanted to bump this up because I would really like to see some serious discussion on these intriguing swords.
There absolutely has to be more flyssas out there, and I am hoping that somebody will be able to share the variations of inscribed markings on the blades (aside from the decorative geometric motif along the back .

Can anybody help?

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2007, 09:11 PM

I wanted to thank Manolo, Kronckew, Lew and Tim for posting your examples of flyssa, which is very much appreciated. There has really been very little research done on these, with the exception of the references kindly noted. Sadly there appears to be little interest in them as evidenced in the cursory mention in most sources in English, and most attention to them seems to be confined to collecting examples.

I think there is a great deal to be revealed in further study of these unique swords and what better place to discuss them than here

I am hoping that others out there who may own examples and have interest in them might come forward so we can learn more about them.

Cmon guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

TVV · 30th July 2007, 10:42 PM

OK, here is mine, a short example similar to the one Tim posted, only not as nice. Similar symbols as well. Keep them coming guys.
Teodor

Jeff D · 31st July 2007, 01:25 AM

Sorry Jim. I have only had time to lurk here lately, but, here is my contribution.

All the Best
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2007, 01:57 AM

Thank you so much Teodor and Jeff!!!! You guys are great!!

Those are both outstanding examples, and it is most interesting to see the sometimes subtle variation in the decoration. As always it would be incredible to find a way to assign regional or period consistancy to certain designs. The inlaid geometric brass triangles are of course apotropaic, but it does seem that the other geometrics may have other intrinsic meanings or symbolism.
I'm hoping that looking at the designs and motif in these we might get some ideas.
Anybody have any recommendations for resources on Berber symbols and designs. I recall reading that much of the symbolism from material culture from Berber regions is sometimes duplicated on the weapons.

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 31st July 2007, 11:29 PM

Hi Jim!

Starting on p.146 of the Desjardins treatise, there is ample discussion of the decorative motifs. Even if one cannot read French, there are diagrams and tables. Desjardins' conclusion seems to be that the ensemble is purely decorative and is achieved through a combination of basic shapes depending on the shape and length of the blade. The whole is a balanced composition and there are no two symbols or images alike. She proposes that all of the old flyssa's demonstrate the same use of combinations of three blocks of decoration. The client is ultimately responsible for choosing the blocks from a choice presented by the smith, so perhaps we are not seeing any indications of social status based on decorative scheme.

Incidentally, I read some 19th century accounts of Algeria, and I encountered numerous passages describing Kabyle culture and ways. At one point there was mention of a young man leaving the village with his clothes and his flissa. When he had made a fortune, he would return to his village, buy a house and a yataghan and get married. It seems that the Ottoman yataghans coexisted with the flyssa, and it was more highly regarded than the latter.
Furthermore, it seems that Kabyles - while supersticious - did not use amulets and charms. If such is this case, the explanation of the dot/ball on the flyssa pommel as a ward against the evil eye may be incorrect. I will look for the texts again and provide the sources.
Lastly, Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this?

Forum member Berberdagger posted a document of different Berber symbols a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=18230 . Some are recognizable on flyssa's, but not all.
I'll translate and post the relevant passages in Desjardins...it'll take a bit though.

Best regards,
Emanuel

30th July 2007, 10:42 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	OK, here is mine, a short example similar to the one Tim posted, only not as nice. Similar symbols as well. Keep them coming guys. Teodor Attached Images

31st July 2007, 01:25 AM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Sorry Jim. I have only had time to lurk here lately, but, here is my contribution. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

31st July 2007, 11:29 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim! Starting on p.146 of the Desjardins treatise, there is ample discussion of the decorative motifs. Even if one cannot read French, there are diagrams and tables. Desjardins' conclusion seems to be that the ensemble is purely decorative and is achieved through a combination of basic shapes depending on the shape and length of the blade. The whole is a balanced composition and there are no two symbols or images alike. She proposes that all of the old flyssa's demonstrate the same use of combinations of three blocks of decoration. The client is ultimately responsible for choosing the blocks from a choice presented by the smith, so perhaps we are not seeing any indications of social status based on decorative scheme. Incidentally, I read some 19th century accounts of Algeria, and I encountered numerous passages describing Kabyle culture and ways. At one point there was mention of a young man leaving the village with his clothes and his flissa. When he had made a fortune, he would return to his village, buy a house and a yataghan and get married. It seems that the Ottoman yataghans coexisted with the flyssa, and it was more highly regarded than the latter. Furthermore, it seems that Kabyles - while supersticious - did not use amulets and charms. If such is this case, the explanation of the dot/ball on the flyssa pommel as a ward against the evil eye may be incorrect. I will look for the texts again and provide the sources. Lastly, Desjardins specifies that flyssa blades are mostly iron, with only slight carburizing. It seems that there is enough carbon content along the edge to allow hardening, but the interior and back remain low-carbon and soft. Could anyone do a test to confirm or refute this? Forum member Berberdagger posted a document of different Berber symbols a while ago http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...chmentid=18230 . Some are recognizable on flyssa's, but not all. I'll translate and post the relevant passages in Desjardins...it'll take a bit though. Best regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 1st August 2007 at 12:32 AM.

6th July 2007, 04:52 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Emanuel, One of the things that has remained puzzling to me on the flyssa (that is one of the things )is the strange three dimensional hourglass shape seen in the motif on the blades of some flyssas. I wish I had an illustration, possibly anyone out there with flyssas might have one with this figure. Years ago there were the occasional discussions on the flyssa and this topic came up, and nothing conclusive was ever revealed. The only suggestion that seemed to make sense was that this somehow represented a drum. The only drum I could come up with that had this unusual shape was the so called 'talking drum' form used by West African tribes. While these tribes included the Hausa, who of course also traversed the Sahara and were closely associated with the Tuareg, it seems odd at how this distinct geometric 'drum' shape would come up on a Kabyle weapon. It is true that the Tuareg tribal units included a political unit controlled by a 'drum chief' whose authority was symbolized by a drum, and the Tuareg were, as the Kabyle, Berber, however would this symbolism have carried into Kabyle motif? Can anyone come up with a photo of a flyssa with one of these in the blade motif, and any ideas on the plausibility of the drum being what is represented in the motif? All the best, Jim

29th July 2007, 06:21 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	I wanted to bump this up because I would really like to see some serious discussion on these intriguing swords. There absolutely has to be more flyssas out there, and I am hoping that somebody will be able to share the variations of inscribed markings on the blades (aside from the decorative geometric motif along the back . Can anybody help?

30th July 2007, 09:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	I wanted to thank Manolo, Kronckew, Lew and Tim for posting your examples of flyssa, which is very much appreciated. There has really been very little research done on these, with the exception of the references kindly noted. Sadly there appears to be little interest in them as evidenced in the cursory mention in most sources in English, and most attention to them seems to be confined to collecting examples. I think there is a great deal to be revealed in further study of these unique swords and what better place to discuss them than here I am hoping that others out there who may own examples and have interest in them might come forward so we can learn more about them. Cmon guys!!! All the best, Jim

31st July 2007, 01:57 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Thank you so much Teodor and Jeff!!!! You guys are great!! Those are both outstanding examples, and it is most interesting to see the sometimes subtle variation in the decoration. As always it would be incredible to find a way to assign regional or period consistancy to certain designs. The inlaid geometric brass triangles are of course apotropaic, but it does seem that the other geometrics may have other intrinsic meanings or symbolism. I'm hoping that looking at the designs and motif in these we might get some ideas. Anybody have any recommendations for resources on Berber symbols and designs. I recall reading that much of the symbolism from material culture from Berber regions is sometimes duplicated on the weapons. All the best, Jim