Flyssa - I finally got one!!

Emanuel · 4th July 2007, 03:58 PM

Well, here are some more pics, as it never hurts to have pics.
Kronckew, my flyssa is very much like yours, with near-identical floral decoration on the spine. Actually, this is also very much like that on Lew's example, but i think his lost some of the brass.
Now I wonder if these variations represent different artisan hands, or the same at different times. If we take it that these "high-quality" flyssa were the work of the Iflissen, then did the same design persist over the years, or were most pieces produced in a short time period?
A detailed study of all of these would be interesting...anyone care to send me their flyssa for analysis?

I got around to uploading "Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste-Desjardinds. I've ranted on before about this treatise and I highly recommend it if you can read French... http://rapidshare.com/files/40972393/sabresKabyles.pdf

Emanuel

Tim Simmons · 4th July 2007, 05:49 PM

A small one that seems to have slightly different decoration, 42cm out of scabbard. I think I read somewhere that these small one in particular are known as vipers and the scabbards carving reflects there nature. i might have it all wrong and mixed up. Sorry the pics are a bit limited, short of time.

kronckew · 4th July 2007, 06:31 PM

as my earlier posts in this thread did not show the blade decorations, just the spines, here are the blades:
(last photo shows curved variant which has much the same decoration and carvings.
- and shows the replacement bands i added on the flyssa scabbard where they were missing.

)

the slight variations in the decorations are almost like they came from the same shop and pattern book, but had different engravers with slightly different skills and emphasis. maybe they got bored making them all alike & added their own slight differences with artistic license.

Jim McDougall · 4th July 2007, 07:52 PM

Hi Emanuel,
Thank you for posting this, and congratulations on finally obtaining an excellent example of these intriguing swords! Thank you also for always including interesting data, especially the comments on the work by Camille Lacoste-Desjardins. I have always wished I had access to this apparantly detailed work on the flyssa, the only in depth study I am aware of, but unfortunately I do not speak or read French.

Krockew, Tim and Lew thank you for also sharing your great examples as well !

When threads develop like this with such great input, it is especially rewarding to see the discussion including such comprehensive examples, and serious observations that better help us understand the weapons being studied.

As we have noted over the years, it does seem the 'flyssa' is a relative latecomer as a distinct form, and its development has been suggested to have come from the early Meditteranean sword forms such as machaira.This seems unlikely as there is no evidence of progressive development and the length of time with the forms unlinked is too long. It seems more plausible in my opinion that it came loosely from the deep bellied and virtually straight Ottoman yataghan of 16th c. ("The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent", 1990, p.64 #50), combined with the needle point form of blades on Circassian/Tatar sabres of c.16th-17th centuries. This hybridization would seem to have been an atavistic development that arose initially in the Grand Kabylie regions of Algeria, and generally held to have been armourers of the Ifflyssen tribe (hence the term 'flyssa').

The earliest known example (at least by narrative using the term) is said to have been presented to a Spanish envoy in 1827. The earliest known provenanced example I have found is one in the Foreign Legion museum in France, captured in combat in 1857. It is of the same form, motif and decoration seen in the well known examples generally seen.

That is primarily what is categorically known on the history of the flyssa from my own perspective, and it would be great to know of any earlier examples known, as well as any narrative data that might be included in material from the French military. It seems that more might be included on the actual use of these.

I agree that the smaller curved and almost dagger type examples are likely modern. I have seen the term 'wedding flyssa' used...is there any material authenticating the wearing of these weapons in wedding ceremonies?

We know that the geometric designs distinctly seen on the flyssa are primarily based on folk religious superstition, i.e. the triangular 'fibula' to protect from the evil eye. It is unclear what creature is represented in the stylized zoomorphic figure.......ideas??

On many flyssas there is a strange sort of hourglass figure usually toward to root of the blade....what does this represent?

Thanks very much everybody!

All best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 5th July 2007, 02:48 PM

Hi Jim,
Desjardins offers some insight into the small flyssa variety. Refering to the decadence of the art of the flyssa, she states that production of smaller copies of flyssas began around 1850 to satisfy the Travelers' demand. The were produced by the Beni-Fraoucen and the Beni-Yenni tribes and more recently (late-1950s) at Bou-Saada. Sometimes they had little formal iron guards (p. 135).
I would guess that the wedding nimcha and Kronckew's curved flyssa are examples of this. So none of the sword/short-sword sized flyssas are any younger than the 1850s...

Cheers,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 6th July 2007, 04:52 AM

Emanuel,
One of the things that has remained puzzling to me on the flyssa (that is one of the things

)is the strange three dimensional hourglass shape seen in the motif on the blades of some flyssas. I wish I had an illustration, possibly anyone out there with flyssas might have one with this figure.

Years ago there were the occasional discussions on the flyssa and this topic came up, and nothing conclusive was ever revealed. The only suggestion that seemed to make sense was that this somehow represented a drum. The only drum I could come up with that had this unusual shape was the so called 'talking drum' form used by West African tribes. While these tribes included the Hausa, who of course also traversed the Sahara and were closely associated with the Tuareg, it seems odd at how this distinct geometric 'drum' shape would come up on a Kabyle weapon.

It is true that the Tuareg tribal units included a political unit controlled by a 'drum chief' whose authority was symbolized by a drum, and the Tuareg were, as the Kabyle, Berber, however would this symbolism have carried into Kabyle motif?

Can anyone come up with a photo of a flyssa with one of these in the blade motif, and any ideas on the plausibility of the drum being what is represented in the motif?

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2007, 06:21 PM

I wanted to bump this up because I would really like to see some serious discussion on these intriguing swords.
There absolutely has to be more flyssas out there, and I am hoping that somebody will be able to share the variations of inscribed markings on the blades (aside from the decorative geometric motif along the back .

Can anybody help?

4th July 2007, 03:58 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Well, here are some more pics, as it never hurts to have pics. Kronckew, my flyssa is very much like yours, with near-identical floral decoration on the spine. Actually, this is also very much like that on Lew's example, but i think his lost some of the brass. Now I wonder if these variations represent different artisan hands, or the same at different times. If we take it that these "high-quality" flyssa were the work of the Iflissen, then did the same design persist over the years, or were most pieces produced in a short time period? A detailed study of all of these would be interesting...anyone care to send me their flyssa for analysis? I got around to uploading "Sabres Kabyles" by Camille Lacoste-Desjardinds. I've ranted on before about this treatise and I highly recommend it if you can read French... http://rapidshare.com/files/40972393/sabresKabyles.pdf Emanuel Attached Images

4th July 2007, 07:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Hi Emanuel, Thank you for posting this, and congratulations on finally obtaining an excellent example of these intriguing swords! Thank you also for always including interesting data, especially the comments on the work by Camille Lacoste-Desjardins. I have always wished I had access to this apparantly detailed work on the flyssa, the only in depth study I am aware of, but unfortunately I do not speak or read French. Krockew, Tim and Lew thank you for also sharing your great examples as well ! When threads develop like this with such great input, it is especially rewarding to see the discussion including such comprehensive examples, and serious observations that better help us understand the weapons being studied. As we have noted over the years, it does seem the 'flyssa' is a relative latecomer as a distinct form, and its development has been suggested to have come from the early Meditteranean sword forms such as machaira.This seems unlikely as there is no evidence of progressive development and the length of time with the forms unlinked is too long. It seems more plausible in my opinion that it came loosely from the deep bellied and virtually straight Ottoman yataghan of 16th c. ("The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent", 1990, p.64 #50), combined with the needle point form of blades on Circassian/Tatar sabres of c.16th-17th centuries. This hybridization would seem to have been an atavistic development that arose initially in the Grand Kabylie regions of Algeria, and generally held to have been armourers of the Ifflyssen tribe (hence the term 'flyssa'). The earliest known example (at least by narrative using the term) is said to have been presented to a Spanish envoy in 1827. The earliest known provenanced example I have found is one in the Foreign Legion museum in France, captured in combat in 1857. It is of the same form, motif and decoration seen in the well known examples generally seen. That is primarily what is categorically known on the history of the flyssa from my own perspective, and it would be great to know of any earlier examples known, as well as any narrative data that might be included in material from the French military. It seems that more might be included on the actual use of these. I agree that the smaller curved and almost dagger type examples are likely modern. I have seen the term 'wedding flyssa' used...is there any material authenticating the wearing of these weapons in wedding ceremonies? We know that the geometric designs distinctly seen on the flyssa are primarily based on folk religious superstition, i.e. the triangular 'fibula' to protect from the evil eye. It is unclear what creature is represented in the stylized zoomorphic figure.......ideas?? On many flyssas there is a strange sort of hourglass figure usually toward to root of the blade....what does this represent? Thanks very much everybody! All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th July 2007 at 04:56 AM.

4th July 2007, 05:49 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,857	A small one that seems to have slightly different decoration, 42cm out of scabbard. I think I read somewhere that these small one in particular are known as vipers and the scabbards carving reflects there nature. i might have it all wrong and mixed up. Sorry the pics are a bit limited, short of time.

4th July 2007, 06:31 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,228	as my earlier posts in this thread did not show the blade decorations, just the spines, here are the blades: (last photo shows curved variant which has much the same decoration and carvings. - and shows the replacement bands i added on the flyssa scabbard where they were missing. ) the slight variations in the decorations are almost like they came from the same shop and pattern book, but had different engravers with slightly different skills and emphasis. maybe they got bored making them all alike & added their own slight differences with artistic license.

5th July 2007, 02:48 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim, Desjardins offers some insight into the small flyssa variety. Refering to the decadence of the art of the flyssa, she states that production of smaller copies of flyssas began around 1850 to satisfy the Travelers' demand. The were produced by the Beni-Fraoucen and the Beni-Yenni tribes and more recently (late-1950s) at Bou-Saada. Sometimes they had little formal iron guards (p. 135). I would guess that the wedding nimcha and Kronckew's curved flyssa are examples of this. So none of the sword/short-sword sized flyssas are any younger than the 1850s... Cheers, Emanuel

6th July 2007, 04:52 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Emanuel, One of the things that has remained puzzling to me on the flyssa (that is one of the things )is the strange three dimensional hourglass shape seen in the motif on the blades of some flyssas. I wish I had an illustration, possibly anyone out there with flyssas might have one with this figure. Years ago there were the occasional discussions on the flyssa and this topic came up, and nothing conclusive was ever revealed. The only suggestion that seemed to make sense was that this somehow represented a drum. The only drum I could come up with that had this unusual shape was the so called 'talking drum' form used by West African tribes. While these tribes included the Hausa, who of course also traversed the Sahara and were closely associated with the Tuareg, it seems odd at how this distinct geometric 'drum' shape would come up on a Kabyle weapon. It is true that the Tuareg tribal units included a political unit controlled by a 'drum chief' whose authority was symbolized by a drum, and the Tuareg were, as the Kabyle, Berber, however would this symbolism have carried into Kabyle motif? Can anyone come up with a photo of a flyssa with one of these in the blade motif, and any ideas on the plausibility of the drum being what is represented in the motif? All the best, Jim

29th July 2007, 06:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	I wanted to bump this up because I would really like to see some serious discussion on these intriguing swords. There absolutely has to be more flyssas out there, and I am hoping that somebody will be able to share the variations of inscribed markings on the blades (aside from the decorative geometric motif along the back . Can anybody help?