Help with the stamps please

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2007, 04:31 PM

Hi Jens,
Just as you have noted, that is the exact course we must follow, and with any luck there may be collectors and readers out there who either hold weapons with like markings or have seen them in references outside those we have. I am unclear as well on whether these deep stamps can only be applied at original forging of blade, or if they can be added later. I know that to some degree stamps can be applied cold, but as you have noted they do not seem as deep.

Thank you for the correction on the scope of armoury marks, and I had forgotten our discussions that included the other two we are aware of, Kishangar and Ulwar....would it be possible to see examples of those. It would be good to have those shown here as well in hopes of response from others that may know or have seen them.

I think it would be well to understand better the terms armoury and arsenal. I am somewhat unclear at the application of the terms. It seems the two terms are used somewhat interchangeably. By dictionary definition, both are described as storage places for weapons and war equipment, however the term 'arsenal' seems to expand more by including in its definition "...a factory for manufacturing military equipment or munitions".

I think it would be helpful to better understand the geo-political structure in historical periods in India during the periods our weapons of study were produced. It would seem of course that some were large cohesive states or provinces while in many regions small kingdom type units were somewhat collectively ruled. Clearly the larger established regions such as noted with Bikaner would have firmly established arsenals, while the smaller kingdoms ( perhaps not the correct term) would rely on either weapons furnished by allied entities or most likely by captured and privately held arms. While the ruler in whichever appropriate capacity may have had a small private armoury, there would probably have not been a firmly established arsenal.

Obviously my historical grasp of India's geo-politics and the structure of its states or provinces is superficial at best, and I would very much appreciate a concise overview, but my point was to establish guidelines for a categoric search for either arsenals or armouries in India. Our goal is of course to see if it would be possible to catalog corresponding markings found on the weapons.

If you could again show those markings from Kishangar and Ulwar, and if possible the Bikaner style markings, we could use those as a base to move forward from here. Also, I have forgotten on the umbrella marking (seen on I think example in Figiel), whether that may fall into the same category as these trisula.

All very best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2007, 04:45 PM

Hi Dralin23,
Very glad to see you posting here!!!

and welcome to the forum!
No need to apologize for your English....you're doing great and have explained your questions well. I am interested in your note that you saw this marking on some other website, and especially if it was on a khanda. Was this a reproduction weapon location?
Can you say more on the marking and weapon you saw ?

Alex,
I agree it would be good to see the overall weapon you have posted, could you show the whole sword.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd June 2007, 04:56 PM

Hi Stefan,

Welcome to the forum

. Yes you are right, there is a trisula mark on the khanda. The mark is not as deep as the one Alex shows, but it is there. http://www.gnwtc.com/swordsip2.htm

Hi Jim,

I will comment on the armoury marks and a few other things, but I will take it to a thread of its own.

Jens

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2007, 06:41 PM

Hi Jens,
Outstanding idea!

This is an extremely interesting topic and one that I know has been key in many of our discussions over time.

All the best,
Jim

ALEX · 26th June 2007, 01:47 PM

Jens,
First, thank you for sharing your research and creating a separate post with more information. Good idea and very well done too.

Stefan,
welcome to the Forum. Below I post more pictures of the blade. It is still in a sad shape, but it's much better than it was before:-)
I suspect this blade is a regular/standard tulwar blade, UNLESS the rare combination of two stamps makes it special:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 26th June 2007, 02:42 PM

Alex, thank you for the nice words, and thank you for the pictures, which adds to the size of the puzzle, as this blade had a shamshir hilt and not a tulwar hilt – just have a look at the form of the tang. Should I guess; then this is a shamshir made for a Hindu, due to the stamps, and this makes it a rare piece. To see one of the stamps is rare, but to see both stamps is even rarer. I asked a friend, who has seen more Indian blades than I will ever see. He did not know what the marks mean, but he said that he has seen the trisula about a dozen times, and the katar three to four times.

ALEX · 26th June 2007, 02:55 PM

Jens, thanks again for your comments. I think the blade was originally of a tulwar. Later it has been re-maked into a shamshir. The metal shamshir hilt core it crudely welded to the blade, so I think it is not an original hilt core.
I have several spare Indian steel hilts, so I think I'll make it a tulwar again:-)

Jim McDougall · 26th June 2007, 04:25 PM

Interesting ! Especially to see a new tang crudely welded to the blade.

23rd June 2007, 04:31 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Hi Jens, Just as you have noted, that is the exact course we must follow, and with any luck there may be collectors and readers out there who either hold weapons with like markings or have seen them in references outside those we have. I am unclear as well on whether these deep stamps can only be applied at original forging of blade, or if they can be added later. I know that to some degree stamps can be applied cold, but as you have noted they do not seem as deep. Thank you for the correction on the scope of armoury marks, and I had forgotten our discussions that included the other two we are aware of, Kishangar and Ulwar....would it be possible to see examples of those. It would be good to have those shown here as well in hopes of response from others that may know or have seen them. I think it would be well to understand better the terms armoury and arsenal. I am somewhat unclear at the application of the terms. It seems the two terms are used somewhat interchangeably. By dictionary definition, both are described as storage places for weapons and war equipment, however the term 'arsenal' seems to expand more by including in its definition "...a factory for manufacturing military equipment or munitions". I think it would be helpful to better understand the geo-political structure in historical periods in India during the periods our weapons of study were produced. It would seem of course that some were large cohesive states or provinces while in many regions small kingdom type units were somewhat collectively ruled. Clearly the larger established regions such as noted with Bikaner would have firmly established arsenals, while the smaller kingdoms ( perhaps not the correct term) would rely on either weapons furnished by allied entities or most likely by captured and privately held arms. While the ruler in whichever appropriate capacity may have had a small private armoury, there would probably have not been a firmly established arsenal. Obviously my historical grasp of India's geo-politics and the structure of its states or provinces is superficial at best, and I would very much appreciate a concise overview, but my point was to establish guidelines for a categoric search for either arsenals or armouries in India. Our goal is of course to see if it would be possible to catalog corresponding markings found on the weapons. If you could again show those markings from Kishangar and Ulwar, and if possible the Bikaner style markings, we could use those as a base to move forward from here. Also, I have forgotten on the umbrella marking (seen on I think example in Figiel), whether that may fall into the same category as these trisula. All very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd June 2007 at 04:46 PM.

23rd June 2007, 04:56 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Stefan, Welcome to the forum. Yes you are right, there is a trisula mark on the khanda. The mark is not as deep as the one Alex shows, but it is there. http://www.gnwtc.com/swordsip2.htm Hi Jim, I will comment on the armoury marks and a few other things, but I will take it to a thread of its own. Jens

26th June 2007, 01:47 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, First, thank you for sharing your research and creating a separate post with more information. Good idea and very well done too. Stefan, welcome to the Forum. Below I post more pictures of the blade. It is still in a sad shape, but it's much better than it was before:-) I suspect this blade is a regular/standard tulwar blade, UNLESS the rare combination of two stamps makes it special:-) Attached Images

23rd June 2007, 04:45 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Hi Dralin23, Very glad to see you posting here!!! and welcome to the forum! No need to apologize for your English....you're doing great and have explained your questions well. I am interested in your note that you saw this marking on some other website, and especially if it was on a khanda. Was this a reproduction weapon location? Can you say more on the marking and weapon you saw ? Alex, I agree it would be good to see the overall weapon you have posted, could you show the whole sword. All the best, Jim

23rd June 2007, 06:41 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Hi Jens, Outstanding idea! This is an extremely interesting topic and one that I know has been key in many of our discussions over time. All the best, Jim

26th June 2007, 02:42 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, thank you for the nice words, and thank you for the pictures, which adds to the size of the puzzle, as this blade had a shamshir hilt and not a tulwar hilt – just have a look at the form of the tang. Should I guess; then this is a shamshir made for a Hindu, due to the stamps, and this makes it a rare piece. To see one of the stamps is rare, but to see both stamps is even rarer. I asked a friend, who has seen more Indian blades than I will ever see. He did not know what the marks mean, but he said that he has seen the trisula about a dozen times, and the katar three to four times.

26th June 2007, 02:55 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, thanks again for your comments. I think the blade was originally of a tulwar. Later it has been re-maked into a shamshir. The metal shamshir hilt core it crudely welded to the blade, so I think it is not an original hilt core. I have several spare Indian steel hilts, so I think I'll make it a tulwar again:-)

26th June 2007, 04:25 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,664	Interesting ! Especially to see a new tang crudely welded to the blade.