Tibetan sword: real?????

dennee · 11th June 2007, 07:49 PM

I wouldn't judge based on dyed coral; the practice of dying coral goes way back. Tibetans, far from the sea, were naturally importing it and even by the turn of the twentieth century, they were getting, indirectly, coral dyed in Italy, I believe.

But overall condition is something to attend to. Because coral and turquoise were so prized and reusable for all sorts of decoration (swords, rings, headdresses, necklaces, saddles, etc.) I find that authentic old swords probably usually have the stones removed, as they were a portable bit of wealth that one need not give up when parting with a blade.

spiral · 11th June 2007, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dennee

Tibetans, far from the sea, were naturally importing it and even by the turn of the twentieth century, they were getting, indirectly, coral dyed in Italy, I believe.

.

I dont think I have ever seen a real red coral inlay yet.

Coralite or Coraline limestone occur in Nepal , Tibet & Bhutan,That was the typicle material used.

It might be a long way from the see today but the Himalayan mountains are full of Ammonites & other sea fossils. Times change the landscape.

Turquise & for the last many years howlite dyed blue or green & also red are also common fakes for both turquise & so called red coral.

Carnelian also is often used for weapons inlay & usualy mistakenly reffered to as red coral.

Spiral

josh stout · 12th June 2007, 04:12 PM

Those are some interesting insights on stones. I can tell something is recent when the colors are very bright, but now I realize older stones might have that faded look precisely because they were dyed with older dyes that fade. What do you think of this one? It is genuine, but what is it?

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ation378-1.jpg

Also, I was thinking about the idea that these blades could be recent forgeries, and why I suspect not. I realized that modern Chinese pattern welds while seeming complex and labor intensive like traditional pattern welds, have one major difference. The modern ones are ground into the shape of a blade, while even simple piled rod construction as seen on Tibetan pieces requires the blade to be forged into shape. This is a much more skilled process than simply grinding to shape, and is why hairpin folding on a blade is still evidence of authenticity.
Josh

spiral · 12th June 2007, 05:53 PM

Josh, If you can scratch it with a pin its probabably limestone or howlite. if you cant its almost certanly carnelain.

Before I am accused of recomending vandalism

Only a minute scratch, visible only with hand lens is neccsary, not a great defacing gouge.

Spiral

josh stout · 14th June 2007, 04:12 PM

Thanks for the tip. Metal does not scratch the stone. It also looks like the stone might have been recycled from something else as it has a hole in the center for attachment, but there is nothing in the hole.
Josh

spiral · 16th June 2007, 05:44 PM

Its certanly carnelian then. Re. the drilled hole carnelian necklaces are very common throughout the Himalayas, {often sold as coral of course!

}

I think old beads are often the source of the inlay on Himalayen weapons, sometimes they put a pin , nail or rivit through them sometimes, to hold them in place & sometimes just to hide or fill the hole.

Spiral

11th June 2007, 07:49 PM	#1
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I wouldn't judge based on dyed coral; the practice of dying coral goes way back. Tibetans, far from the sea, were naturally importing it and even by the turn of the twentieth century, they were getting, indirectly, coral dyed in Italy, I believe. But overall condition is something to attend to. Because coral and turquoise were so prized and reusable for all sorts of decoration (swords, rings, headdresses, necklaces, saddles, etc.) I find that authentic old swords probably usually have the stones removed, as they were a portable bit of wealth that one need not give up when parting with a blade.

12th June 2007, 04:12 PM	#3
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Those are some interesting insights on stones. I can tell something is recent when the colors are very bright, but now I realize older stones might have that faded look precisely because they were dyed with older dyes that fade. What do you think of this one? It is genuine, but what is it? http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j6...ation378-1.jpg Also, I was thinking about the idea that these blades could be recent forgeries, and why I suspect not. I realized that modern Chinese pattern welds while seeming complex and labor intensive like traditional pattern welds, have one major difference. The modern ones are ground into the shape of a blade, while even simple piled rod construction as seen on Tibetan pieces requires the blade to be forged into shape. This is a much more skilled process than simply grinding to shape, and is why hairpin folding on a blade is still evidence of authenticity. Josh

12th June 2007, 05:53 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Josh, If you can scratch it with a pin its probabably limestone or howlite. if you cant its almost certanly carnelain. Before I am accused of recomending vandalism Only a minute scratch, visible only with hand lens is neccsary, not a great defacing gouge. Spiral

14th June 2007, 04:12 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thanks for the tip. Metal does not scratch the stone. It also looks like the stone might have been recycled from something else as it has a hole in the center for attachment, but there is nothing in the hole. Josh

16th June 2007, 05:44 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Its certanly carnelian then. Re. the drilled hole carnelian necklaces are very common throughout the Himalayas, {often sold as coral of course! } I think old beads are often the source of the inlay on Himalayen weapons, sometimes they put a pin , nail or rivit through them sometimes, to hold them in place & sometimes just to hide or fill the hole. Spiral