Chinese sword: real or fake?

Bill M · 11th June 2007, 04:37 PM

Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched?

Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items.

Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

josh stout · 11th June 2007, 06:10 PM

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one.

As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me.

Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type.
Josh

josh stout · 11th June 2007, 06:18 PM

OK, I looked some more and see what looks like a dip in the blade edge as if damage had been ground away. This may be an older blade put together in the late 19th C or early 20th C with new fittings and scabbard. This could explain the general feeling that some seem to have that there is something slightly strange. I still think the fittings have some age, but there is a certain hurried look to the fittings that does not match the quality of the blade. All in all one of the finest blades I have seen with fittings that are not quite up to the same standard.
Josh

Tatyana Dianova · 11th June 2007, 09:02 PM

Thank you very much, Josh, for your explanation. Yes, the blade has some battle damage: some nicks from sword blows on the cutting edge and on the back of the blade, as well as several dips (seems like earlier nicks were sharpened / removed).
The most funny thing about this sword is that I even did not know that it has a Damascus blade when I was buying it - so rusty it was! But the Damascus pattern is so bold that it was good visible immediately after the active surface rust was removed. And during polishing it was more and more evident even without etching.

Bill M · 11th June 2007, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josh stout

I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one. Josh

Sure Josh. Here are examples on some of my dao and a jian. The dao have old or original fittings. The jian has Long Quan fittings that are careful copies of the originals.

All these pieces were either bought from Phillip Tom or recommended by him.

He told me there were periods where the holes were punched, like the half-moon or drilled. I really can't remember which is better or if there really is a huge difference in the age or quality. It seems he liked the half-moon. But it may also be that he liked the half-moon for a particular period. I wish I could be more certain.

Incidentally the one with the ball pommel has the yellow grip cord indicating it belonged to a royal family member. That one is a a goose quill. The others are willow leaf and the ox-tail.

spiral · 11th June 2007, 09:17 PM

That blade speaks of true quality to me. its fittings look handled, not sharp & new.

To my eye Its leaves the fakes the Chinese have been selling to westerners for the last 100 years in the dust.

Spiral

Tatyana Dianova · 12th June 2007, 10:41 AM

Thankyou Bill for sharing pictures of these wonderful swords with us! Can you please post also the whole sword pictures? Does any of them has Damascus blade?

Bill M · 12th June 2007, 11:49 AM

Thank you Tatyana. I will post more pictures soon. They all have patterned blades. San mei construction.

Nick Wardigo · 12th June 2007, 01:17 PM

Tatyana--
A very nice blade with what appears to be the original handle fittings and wrap. Or, at least, they have a good amount of age. I usually associate this style of wrap to the early-to-mid 19th century...a little earlier than Josh's educated guess, but Josh could easily be correct as well. The blade COULD be older, but barring further evidence (like viewing the corrosion on the tang), I would guess not. The style of the blade is keeping with that date. Definitely looks like an inserted edge to me, and as Josh pointed out, an unusual "horse tooth" weld between the soft and hard steels.

The scabbard looks later...I would guess early 20th century. I mean, it wasn't made last week, but it isn't original. On almost all Chinese swords, the scabbard fittings match the hilt fittings. As you can see, the hilt fittings are rather ornately decorated, and the scabbard fittings are very plain. However, it seems like the scabbard is a good fit, and I would expect that this scabbard was made for this blade (rather than recycling another scabbard).

Josh--
I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.

josh stout · 15th June 2007, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Sure Josh. Here are examples on some of my dao and a jian. The dao have old or original fittings. The jian has Long Quan fittings that are careful copies of the originals.

All these pieces were either bought from Phillip Tom or recommended by him.

He told me there were periods where the holes were punched, like the half-moon or drilled. I really can't remember which is better or if there really is a huge difference in the age or quality. It seems he liked the half-moon. But it may also be that he liked the half-moon for a particular period. I wish I could be more certain.

Ah, now I see what you mean. Thank you. I think you are correct that the round holes are later, but I think you would need a few things to go on before giving a date.
Josh

Philip · 16th June 2007, 06:58 AM

I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in.

The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration.

The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

Philip · 16th June 2007, 07:02 AM

There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro.

However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only.

Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

Nick Wardigo · 16th June 2007, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Josh Stout wrote:

These latest pictures don't show the line I thought was evidence of piled construction of the type one sees with twist core. Now it is looking like what I think is called "pool and eye" pattern though I am not good at pattern weld names. The Chinese would call this "flowery steel" (hua gang?).

Josh--
It may be overthinking the pattern-welding process to assign definite terms to every variation in patterning. When you say "pool and eye", I believe you are referring to a patterning that shows up in Persian (and, I think, Indian) wootz which is sometimes called, "rose." And, indeed, those recurring patterns were intentionally created by the smith (much like the "ladder of the Prophet" pattern). In the case of this Chinese saber, while the "pools" do resemble the "rose" pattern, I think they're just incidental to the horse-tooth forging. That is to say, the horse-tooth patterning was intentional, and in the process of forcing the lower-carbon cheek into that shape, the layers of steel were compacted and stretched to make pool-like shapes, but the pool-like shapes weren't intentional themselves. They were by-products of the horse-tooth pattern.

I haven't done a lot of research into Chinese forging nomenclature, but I think "hua gang" is a rather ambiguous term applied to patterned steel in general. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it used to differentiate in same way as the word "sham" is used to refer to a very specific type of wootz.

16th June 2007, 06:58 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	comments on fittings I'm a bit late to this thread, having just been alerted by Nick Wardigo. Someone made the comment that the fittings were not up to the quality of the blade. Yes and no. I believe it was Nick who opined that the scabbard is a later replacement of indifferent quality, and I agree. Probably a "field expedient" made quickly just to have something to protect the blade and carry it around in. The hilt fittings were originally quite good. They are in the style and quality of the late 18th thru early 19th cent., with the archaistic dragon motifs in relief that started to appear on both gun and saber decoration as early as the latter 17th. The surfaces of the pommel and ferrule are extremely worn, blurring the design, but a good look at the surfaces of the guard show something of the original condition of the work. The wear on the hilt is consistent with the signs of hard usage evident on the blade before its restoration. The cord wrapping on the grip looks to be in very sound condition, and considering the amount of wear on the metal parts, it is probably not the original. It could date from the time the scabbard was replaced.

16th June 2007, 07:02 AM	#12
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	horse tooth lamination made today There is no question that this saber is "the real McCoy" and is definitely not a modern repro. However, a reader expressed doubts that this technique is used at present, and this post addresses this point only. Yes, the "machi" (horse tooth) has been made recently by some Japanese smiths, following the tradition of the Gassan (moon mountain) sword school, which was said to have been founded centuries ago by an immigrant smith from China. Also, a contemporary swordsmith named Vincent Evans here in the US has made several Chinese style blades with this same equine dentition.

11th June 2007, 04:37 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Small question about the hanger holes. I don't see round holes on any of my older Chinese swords' hangers. Most have half moon shaped holes. Possibly drilled instead of punched? Perhaps it is my paranoia in dealing with Chinese items. Don't mean to rain on your parade. Would not kick it out of my sword rack.

11th June 2007, 06:10 PM	#2
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	I am not sure what is referred to by the "hanger holes" but the suspension system looks to be authentic late 19thC manufacture. I would love to see a picture of half moon shaped holes as the late pieces I have all look like this one. As for the pattern welding: This is a wonderful and very valuable 'horse tooth pattern” that can no longer be made by any modern smith. Those who are concerned by the strong pattern similar to the strong round patterns seen on many fakes should look at the way the pattern meets the inserted edge. You will not find this on fakes. Also, there are two separate pattern welds indicating an even higher level of sophistication. There is the pattern at the back that was attached via piled construction to the bar into which the edge was inserted with the horse tooth pattern weld. This construction is usually only found on twist core blades. I cannot quite make out the pattern on the back, but it might almost be a kind of twist core. I would appreciate if a smith could explain it to me. Entering the realm of speculation, this looks like a late piece from the end of the 19thC made for a wealthy connoisseur or officer. The fittings would not indicate a particularly high rank, but the blade indicates the owner had significant wealth. I have seen other late show pieces with twist core blades or other fancy pattern welds and this one seems to fit in with that type. Josh

11th June 2007, 06:18 PM	#3
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	OK, I looked some more and see what looks like a dip in the blade edge as if damage had been ground away. This may be an older blade put together in the late 19th C or early 20th C with new fittings and scabbard. This could explain the general feeling that some seem to have that there is something slightly strange. I still think the fittings have some age, but there is a certain hurried look to the fittings that does not match the quality of the blade. All in all one of the finest blades I have seen with fittings that are not quite up to the same standard. Josh

11th June 2007, 09:02 PM	#4
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 736	Thank you very much, Josh, for your explanation. Yes, the blade has some battle damage: some nicks from sword blows on the cutting edge and on the back of the blade, as well as several dips (seems like earlier nicks were sharpened / removed). The most funny thing about this sword is that I even did not know that it has a Damascus blade when I was buying it - so rusty it was! But the Damascus pattern is so bold that it was good visible immediately after the active surface rust was removed. And during polishing it was more and more evident even without etching.

11th June 2007, 09:17 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	That blade speaks of true quality to me. its fittings look handled, not sharp & new. To my eye Its leaves the fakes the Chinese have been selling to westerners for the last 100 years in the dust. Spiral

12th June 2007, 10:41 AM	#7
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 736	Thankyou Bill for sharing pictures of these wonderful swords with us! Can you please post also the whole sword pictures? Does any of them has Damascus blade?

12th June 2007, 11:49 AM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thank you Tatyana. I will post more pictures soon. They all have patterned blades. San mei construction.

12th June 2007, 01:17 PM	#9
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Tatyana-- A very nice blade with what appears to be the original handle fittings and wrap. Or, at least, they have a good amount of age. I usually associate this style of wrap to the early-to-mid 19th century...a little earlier than Josh's educated guess, but Josh could easily be correct as well. The blade COULD be older, but barring further evidence (like viewing the corrosion on the tang), I would guess not. The style of the blade is keeping with that date. Definitely looks like an inserted edge to me, and as Josh pointed out, an unusual "horse tooth" weld between the soft and hard steels. The scabbard looks later...I would guess early 20th century. I mean, it wasn't made last week, but it isn't original. On almost all Chinese swords, the scabbard fittings match the hilt fittings. As you can see, the hilt fittings are rather ornately decorated, and the scabbard fittings are very plain. However, it seems like the scabbard is a good fit, and I would expect that this scabbard was made for this blade (rather than recycling another scabbard). Josh-- I'm a little perplexed by your assertion that horse-tooth patterning cannot be replicated by modern smiths. It's true that I haven't seen any dating later than the early 20th century, but I have seen a lot of very beautiful modern pattern welding, including some very sophisticated twist-core. I'd be surprised if a smith couldn't replicate this. Whether it would be cost-effective is another matter entirely.