Native American gunstock club

CharlesS · 5th June 2007, 03:19 PM

To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics.

I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times

), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma.

About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades.

My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

Henk · 5th June 2007, 10:14 PM

I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it.

Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made.

Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.

RSWORD · 6th June 2007, 06:51 PM

I think it is wise to lean towards precaution when reviewing these items. Unfortunately, my pictures really do not do the piece justice and I think it is hard to make assessments simply from pictures, unless of course someone says, "hey, that is regularly sold on such a such website." Some online research yielded the following mid-19th examples for comparison purposes.

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-002.jpg

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-003.jpg

Now, for my education and from these additional pictures please tell me how to tell the difference between machined and hand made?

Lew · 6th June 2007, 08:47 PM

Question

Does the blade have any markings on it? I would think if the blades on these clubs were made either in Europe or the USA way back in the 1800s they would be stamped with some type of mark?

Lew

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2007, 09:08 PM

A couple of questions. Are these based on a gun stock. Was this form made before a frequent supply of guns. The examples I have in books all sugest they are from the early 1800s- 1820 . Which may suggest it is possible that they are not actual fighting weapons? when compered to other Wood Land clubs and plains weapons. Many of the real fighting weapons do seem to look a little more like the big knobkerries from SA. Surely the supply of guns in the Eastern Wood lands by the 1800s made these more as prestige items. It would be really nice if this was the real thing, I do not like the angle cut at the handle.

CharlesS · 6th June 2007, 10:41 PM

My info on these is that they were quite literally made to look like gunstocks to deceive an enemy from a distance. In a time when muskets were a feared and precious commodity among Native Americans just the simple perception that one side had more guns than the other could start...or stop...potential battle. Some seem to think that many of the clubs were literally made from gunstocks, thus the name, but this is generally untrue. You could make an arguement that these made have been a psychological weapon to a degree.

Tim's comment about dress or ceremonial pieces is a good one. These types of clubs show up an awful lot in the famous portraits(Catlin, etc.) of the era.

I don't think there is any 'absolute' rule with these, like so many other ethnographic pieces.

Andrew · 7th June 2007, 03:08 AM

Rick, any wear on it not visible in the photos? Marks on the blade?

It is extremely similar to a club that appears on page 23 of Taylor's Native American Weapons. It is described so:

Quote:

A magnificent gunstock-shaped club collected in the 1820's by the traveler, Duke Paul of Wurttemberg...This one, probably from the Osage, has a trade steel blade and a handle wrapped with snakeskin.

Your's has painted line detailing on the "stock" nearly identical to Duke Paul's. The similarities are, otherwise, striking.

Outstanding club, Rick!

5th June 2007, 03:19 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	To me Rick's club's wood looks awfully machined, and the paint looks like an oil base rather than a more muted earth tone. But hard to tell from the pics. I collected repro Native American weapons for years for display in my history and religion classes(...wished I coulda used 'em in class a couple of times ), and I can tell you that the some of the repros out there have an astonishingly authentic look to them. Many Native American artists reproduce these weapons as, just that, art, and they use authentic styles and materials. I wish I had kept pics of some of my old stuff or some examples for here, but I sold them all to a tourist trading post in Oklahoma. About 10 years ago some of the props used in Dances with Wolves were sold and they may have been props, but they were "the real thing" in every regard, just not old. I was lucky enough to get a ball head war club from the movie, but again sold it.......for blades. My point is that I have seen enough of these to know that I would NEVER, EVER buy a piece that I assumed was pre-20th Cent. without the input of a real expert.

5th June 2007, 10:14 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I really like this stuff, but i cann't say a thing about it. Even when it is a repro, it is a very nice club. But my first impression on this club is the same as CharlesS. I don't think it is hand made. Just like Jim I would also like to see more of native american weapons and learn from it. Even for an European it is a very interesting subject.

6th June 2007, 06:51 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I think it is wise to lean towards precaution when reviewing these items. Unfortunately, my pictures really do not do the piece justice and I think it is hard to make assessments simply from pictures, unless of course someone says, "hey, that is regularly sold on such a such website." Some online research yielded the following mid-19th examples for comparison purposes. http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-002.jpg http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/haw...arclub-003.jpg Now, for my education and from these additional pictures please tell me how to tell the difference between machined and hand made?

6th June 2007, 08:47 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Question Does the blade have any markings on it? I would think if the blades on these clubs were made either in Europe or the USA way back in the 1800s they would be stamped with some type of mark? Lew

6th June 2007, 09:08 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	A couple of questions. Are these based on a gun stock. Was this form made before a frequent supply of guns. The examples I have in books all sugest they are from the early 1800s- 1820 . Which may suggest it is possible that they are not actual fighting weapons? when compered to other Wood Land clubs and plains weapons. Many of the real fighting weapons do seem to look a little more like the big knobkerries from SA. Surely the supply of guns in the Eastern Wood lands by the 1800s made these more as prestige items. It would be really nice if this was the real thing, I do not like the angle cut at the handle.

6th June 2007, 10:41 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	My info on these is that they were quite literally made to look like gunstocks to deceive an enemy from a distance. In a time when muskets were a feared and precious commodity among Native Americans just the simple perception that one side had more guns than the other could start...or stop...potential battle. Some seem to think that many of the clubs were literally made from gunstocks, thus the name, but this is generally untrue. You could make an arguement that these made have been a psychological weapon to a degree. Tim's comment about dress or ceremonial pieces is a good one. These types of clubs show up an awful lot in the famous portraits(Catlin, etc.) of the era. I don't think there is any 'absolute' rule with these, like so many other ethnographic pieces.