keris and spirit

Raden Usman Djogja · 15th May 2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

AFAIK no such records exist.

Please forgive me if i sound a little frustrated when discussing this subject. It is just that we have been around and round on the meteorite issue many times before with very little resolution. I highly recommend that the new members here take the time to use the search feature for both this and the old forum to see where we have already been on this subject. Try "meteorite keris" as your keywords.

David,

yes, you are right. there is lack of written evidence, especially scientific/objective written evidence. even today, written recording is not usual yet. yeah... simply related to the culture of society. the knowlegde of oldsmith transferred orally to youngsmith. why? to many explanation: illiteracy, culture, secret recipe, delegitimation and so on. this realm happens not only in keris field but also in other field which involving magical aspects.

I can understand if discussing the same topic again and again and again has disturbed you. Lets move further. Leave meteorite issue because it is part of the past. How about spirit? If it is an old one, too... so lets stop this topic and change with a new one. Any new issue offer?... or just go to the other thread... something new and interesting there...21st century dapur.

Usmen

David · 15th May 2007, 09:59 PM

Well Usmen, i don't think the idea of meteorite used in keris pamor is a matter of secrecy. The idea is far too common in the general keris consciousness to be meant as a secret.
I am also not "disturbed" by the discussion, but i do think that it is important to understand just how deeply we have covered this subject. I have linked to just one 5 page thread on the subject and there are many more. They are all a good and interesting read and i highly recommend that if you have not already tackled the task (yes, there is a lot of reading

) that you and others do take the time to see where we have been and what has been discussed. It is not my desire to stop the discussion here. I just don't want to see it get bogged down in the same old pitfalls.
You suggest that we leave the subject in the past and talk about spirit, but we are talking about meteorite now in relation to spirit so it really is relavent to this thread. Hopeful we can, if not now, then perhaps someday, cross new territory on this subject that will enlighten us all.

Lei Shen Dao · 16th May 2007, 03:26 AM

Quote:

You may choose to disregard the questions, but i certainly mean no disrespect in asking them.

David

No problem. I know that you mean no disrespect and of course I don't disregard your questions.

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land

) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

I respect their wish for anonymity, so I guess this makes my statements dubious. I hope not too much though.

Best

David · 16th May 2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

I just happened to know the opinion of some people from this part of the world (the keris land

) and I thought it was good to sare with you.

Opinions are always welcome here i would never automatically dismiss them. However, i don't like to see opinions presented as fact. What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing. What we believe might well be true, but without evidence we can never be sure. I do not disbelieve your statements about meteorite and keris, but even if you were to name the honorable people who hold the same opinion it would still remain a belief that none of us can claim to know for sure.

So no, your statements aren't too dubious.

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2007, 10:46 PM

David, what I shall now write is not intended as disagreement with the position you have put, it is just another way of looking at "truth".

If you have enough people believing that something is true, then it becomes so.

I've heard a story a couple of times that might be worth repeating.

It would seem that in old Hawaii the local priest of dukun or whatever they call them in Hawaii, would go down to the eastern shore before sunrise and make an offering to ensure that the sun would rise.
The proof of the effectiveness of his ministrations was that the sun rose.

If the people believed this, it was true for those people.

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Who would ever argue with the "truths" of any major religion?

Certainly not I.

Lei Shen Dao · 16th May 2007, 11:12 PM

Quote:

What we believe and what we know are not always the same thing

David

You are absolutely wright about that.
I should write the word believe or heard and not the word know

.

My English language skills aren't good enough. Sometimes this is a big problem conserning the meaning of what I would like to say or write...

David · 17th May 2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen.

Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true.

Well Alan, i think you know me well enough by now to know (or maybe just believe

) that i have a pretty good understanding of this theory and have, in fact, seen it in action. Seperate realities is a common tool in my personal spiritual practice and i am not trying to throw stones at anyone elses glass houses.

I am not quite convinced that it completely applies in this example though. If i believe a keris is powerful and can help me gain an end to a need or desire and that end does, indeed, come about i might then attribute the power to that keris and that may well be my "truth". I certainly wouldn't agrue this type of "truth" with anyone. Now i might believe that the essence of this power is held within the keris only because of it's meteorite content. Well, i know the end result came about and it would be awful difficult for anyone to prove that that keris wasn't in some way involved in that outcome. However, if i were, in the cause of science, to destroy that keris to try to find that meteorite content (something i would never dream of doing BTW

) and found no nickel content or even titanium what then? I may have believed that this keris had meteorite in it but it didn't. It was never "true" even though i thought it was. What would probably still be "true" for me in this hypothetical example is that this keris still has power. Afterall, my end result did come about. That would be an unchangable "fact". Of course, if this were an actual occurence, it would now be "my truth" that a keris does not need meteorite to be powerful.

In terms of history i see even less use for this theory. When enough people (usually the victors) believe that a moment or era in history occurred in a particular way (even if it didn't happen that way at all but it makes these victors look much better by their way of thinking) i would rather call that an "injustice" than a "truth". I may choose to be diplomatic to with these peoples rewriting of history or depending on the level of the injustice i might feel obliged to stand on the nearest hill top and shout "Liar!" at the top of my lungs. Remember, i am an American and have many years of experience living in a country that has a nasty habit of skewing it's history to reflect the glory of the Homeland.

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2007, 02:53 AM

Well David, if you're going to force me to get down into the specifics of meteorites in keris, rather than wander all over the interesting and unstable ground of human perception, I will be as specific as I know how.

I know of only two keris that definitely have meteorite in them.
I know this because I forged the meteorite, and I was present when it was used.

I possess one tombak that according the Javanese parameters used to identify the maker, and the material , contains meteorite, according to those parameters.

I possess one keris that according to those same parameters also probably contains meteorite.

However, I have seen and handled many keris that according to respected Javanese authorities , applying the same parameters but only in respect of material, definitely contain meteorite.

These Javanese authorities know that my tombak, my keris, and the many others to which I refer above contain meteorite. They know it because they have absolute faith in their system and their knowledge.

On the other hand I am of little faith (and will undoubtedly go straight to hell) so I only know of two blades that contain meteorite:- the two I was involved in the manufacture of.

My truth is a little different from the truth of these other people.

My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.

15th May 2007, 09:59 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	Well Usmen, i don't think the idea of meteorite used in keris pamor is a matter of secrecy. The idea is far too common in the general keris consciousness to be meant as a secret. I am also not "disturbed" by the discussion, but i do think that it is important to understand just how deeply we have covered this subject. I have linked to just one 5 page thread on the subject and there are many more. They are all a good and interesting read and i highly recommend that if you have not already tackled the task (yes, there is a lot of reading ) that you and others do take the time to see where we have been and what has been discussed. It is not my desire to stop the discussion here. I just don't want to see it get bogged down in the same old pitfalls. You suggest that we leave the subject in the past and talk about spirit, but we are talking about meteorite now in relation to spirit so it really is relavent to this thread. Hopeful we can, if not now, then perhaps someday, cross new territory on this subject that will enlighten us all.

16th May 2007, 10:46 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	David, what I shall now write is not intended as disagreement with the position you have put, it is just another way of looking at "truth". If you have enough people believing that something is true, then it becomes so. I've heard a story a couple of times that might be worth repeating. It would seem that in old Hawaii the local priest of dukun or whatever they call them in Hawaii, would go down to the eastern shore before sunrise and make an offering to ensure that the sun would rise. The proof of the effectiveness of his ministrations was that the sun rose. If the people believed this, it was true for those people. If we believe that we can influence anything by some action or other, and enough people believe that, then for these people, that becomes true. If the desired effect comes to pass, then it has proven that what was done to achieve that effect worked. If it does not come to pass, then the fault must lay with our performance of the ritual---or maybe God simply has a bigger plan, and could not permit it to happen. Truth is a bit like history---get enough people believing something, and it becomes true. Who would ever argue with the "truths" of any major religion? Certainly not I.

17th May 2007, 02:53 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Well David, if you're going to force me to get down into the specifics of meteorites in keris, rather than wander all over the interesting and unstable ground of human perception, I will be as specific as I know how. I know of only two keris that definitely have meteorite in them. I know this because I forged the meteorite, and I was present when it was used. I possess one tombak that according the Javanese parameters used to identify the maker, and the material , contains meteorite, according to those parameters. I possess one keris that according to those same parameters also probably contains meteorite. However, I have seen and handled many keris that according to respected Javanese authorities , applying the same parameters but only in respect of material, definitely contain meteorite. These Javanese authorities know that my tombak, my keris, and the many others to which I refer above contain meteorite. They know it because they have absolute faith in their system and their knowledge. On the other hand I am of little faith (and will undoubtedly go straight to hell) so I only know of two blades that contain meteorite:- the two I was involved in the manufacture of. My truth is a little different from the truth of these other people. My profession stands on a foundation of ensuring that certain things are in fact true.But after spending most of my life giving the thumbs up, or the thumbs down to various aspects of the truth, I have come to the rather non-committed position that anything is only as true as our knowledge and opinion, at any point in time, permits it to be.