Turkish Ribbon Pattern

[ALEX]

First and foremost - thanks for responding and for your valuable comments and compliments. As always, great to see so many knowledgeable and observant members here.

Jeff, I thought of Caucasus origin. However, the presence of a fairly nice "Turkish Ribbon" pattern initially persuaded me to think of it as Turkish made. Hence, the question: Was the "Turkish Pattern" produced outside Turkey, i.e. in Caucasus? Lastly, based on a valuable input from another member - the blade is of Tiflis origin, early/mid 19th Cent, and the stamp is NOT in Armenian as I thought, but in Arabic.

Al-Anizi, You're absolutely correct - the mounts on the straight sword are latter additions, perhaps mid 20th Century.
The dirt powder called "Trap Tahdeer" ("Trap" is Arabic for dirt). This works really well on contact, and it can stay active for very long time after mixing with water. The results are not as defined and of high black and white contrast as with acid etch, but it leaves the surface with smooth water-like light grayish effect, and the "veins" to appear under the surface.

Ariel, thanks for pointing out that the mounts are Georgian (shame on me for not knowing it). The blade is Persian though with typical Lion and "O Fulfiller of Needs" stamps. The area in and around the stamps is heavily pitted, not like the rest of the blade. What could be a reason for that?

[Jeff Pringle]

The area in and around the stamps is heavily pitted, not like the rest of the blade. What could be a reason for that?

When someone was sanding the rust pits out of the blade during refurbishing/restoration, they did not sand as much near the stamps for fear of erasing them?

[Jeff D]

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the update. Tiflis origin makes perfect sense. You may find similar patterns in Georgian Kindjals. Was there any mention on which aspects localize the blade to Tifilis rather than else where in the Caucasas?
The mounts on this one certainly do look like modern Arabic additions, which I wouldn't argue with Saqr over, however i have seen Georgian mounts with similar quillion blocks ( http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2408 ). Perhaps it may be original?

Very nice collection and I look forward to seeing more.

Jeff

P.S. Often there is more corrosion and pitting under the the scabbard mounts as this traps and holds mosture.

[ariel]

Jeff,
I hate to argue with Artzi, but IMHO there is nothing Georgian in the saber from his site: South Arabian, pure and simple.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the update. Tiflis origin makes perfect sense. You may find similar patterns in Georgian Kindjals. Was there any mention on which aspects localize the blade to Tifilis rather than else where in the Caucasas?
The mounts on this one certainly do look like modern Arabic additions, which I wouldn't argue with Saqr over, however i have seen Georgian mounts with similar quillion blocks ( http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=2408 ). Perhaps it may be original?

Very nice collection and I look forward to seeing more.

Jeff

P.S. Often there is more corrosion and pitting under the the scabbard mounts as this traps and holds mosture.

Nice to hear from you Jeff,

As to that sword, and this style of arab sword especially, I always believed that this style is an import into arabia, I wouldnt think that it goes back any further than the 17th century. As you have noticed, there is alot of resemblance to georgian sabres, and people of central arabia, Nejd, where this sword design is found, call it a 'gurda', not a saif, which itself is a loanword. If you look at other Georgian sabres for auction on Hermann Historica, you will also see how similar they are to arabian sabres, with the quillions, hilts, the obtuse angled pommels, and fine hilt chains. Even when you take alook at the blades, most georgian sabres sport tri-fullered, almost straight blades, a blade feature that more than 50% of all nejdi sabres have. Also, the belts used to suspend Georgian swords, are identical in method and concept to those used to suspend arab sabres. However, it is very hard to certify anything, as most arab sabres as you know sport trade blades, european, persian, indian, caucasian, turkish, and only a few have locally made blades.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat51_p.txt

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat51_p.txt


Unfortunately, knowledge surrounding these swords and their relative time periods is scarce, and I am trying hard to dig it out, from people living in other countries than I am.