Swords a la Portuguese

[Marc]

I’m trying to get a hold of Nobre’s book, the only problem is that the editorial has his online shop built on a non-secure server. There’s no way I’m going to send my credit card details over such a connection. I contacted them, let’s see if we can work something out.

Speaking of which… I would also be interested, indeed, in getting “Homens Espadas e Tomates”, could we arrange something? If you have anything in mind, please, contact me via PM and we’ll see what can be done. In any event, thank you very much for your offer.

Regarding your comments…



Yes, I agree that the swords with the rounded quillion finials are exclusively Portugese, or from Portugese-controlled lands. But:

the fifth picture in the above shown Antonio's page, a 1500's navigator sword, is quoted in Daehnhardt's book as being of Venetian origin

If you’re referring to this one:



I think it’s also Portugese, for what I can gather from the picture. It only lacks the rounded quillion finials, but there’s plenty of other elements, specially the proportions of the different elements, that relate it with the “colhona”. If Mr. Daehnhardt has any additional information that makes him believe otherwise, I would love to know it…



On the other hand, the last sword:



it’s indeed of a less specific type, possibly Iberian, from the Spanish kingdoms in Italy or from other Italian sources. Can’t be more specific without more data.

Daehnhardt sugests that Portuguese influence extends from the Morocan Nimcha to the Cingalese Kastane.

Well, and I suggest that, here, the full extent of the word “influence” would then become the core of a much deep, long and intense debate…

By the way, thank you for the warning about the number of “colhonas” in Nobre’s book, but, to be sincere, I’m interested in everything it has to say about Portugese weapons in general. There’s so little written about them, and, If you ask me, it’s a bit fallacious to pretend to study “Spanish” weapons without at least being somewhat familiar with those of our closest neighbours



Thanks again, Fernando. A nice discussion.

[fernando]

Right Marc, you have a PM
fernando

[RRSAND]

It may look a bit weird, to "ressurect" a 10 year old post, but... Information on this is scarce.
What do you think of this (it was found in Angola, in the 60's, and i recently aquired it)?
Sorry about the quality of the photos, but i don´t have my "real" camera with me...

[Battara]

Moving this to the European section. Probably get better responses there.

[Gonzalo G]

I'm not a consoisseur on this kind of weapons, but I will express some ideas, meanwhile others, better informed, gives his or her opinions. The work seems very rough, as if it was made in a colony overseas. Like some of the so-called "colonial rapiers", made in America instead Europe. The fullers on the ricasso are unusual, as the pommel. Flatted pommels with perforations and a small central bar can be found on Portuguese swords of this type, and this pommel in certain way remainds them, but only in a certain way. The endings of the guards does not present the typical circular flat form of the Portuguese boarding swords from the 15th Century. They are more stylized, but this also was not unusual on this swords, as seen in the example above in the post from Marc. The perforations on the ring guards seem to correspond to stems (pitons), a sort of defenses which now are lacking, probably because of a bad hot-welding work. I don´t have specifics on the forging capabilities of the natives of Angola in the 17th Century (if the date on the blade is correct), but this sword can be a copy of the Portuguese boarding sword made by a local blacksmith, Portuguese or native, but a bungler.

[RobertGuy]

Is the red colouration in the photographs an artifact or is there really red active rust on this blade? This is something I would not expect to see on a blade of this age.

[fernando]

Wouldn't this be an example made by African locals inspired in navigator swords, which prevailed through centuries to be used for ceremonies or prestige, the so called MBELE A LULENDO (sword of power) ?. In this specific specimen, the date 1697 could have also been borrowed from early original examples. This one could be as late as from the 19th. century. The variation in model details may as well be 'authors imagination'. Although these swords may be acquired in (Nothern) Angola, it is obvious to expect that their design found its way there descending from neighbour Southwest Congo, where its influence was provided by navigators is registered.
But of course, anyone with knowledge may certainly correct me ... partly or totally .


.

[RRSAND]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

I'm not a consoisseur on this kind of weapons, but I will express some ideas, meanwhile others, better informed, gives his or her opinions. The work seems very rough, as if it was made in a colony overseas. Like some of the so-called "colonial rapiers", made in America instead Europe. The fullers on the ricasso are unusual, as the pommel. Flatted pommels with perforations and a small central bar can be found on Portuguese swords of this type, and this pommel in certain way remainds them, but only in a certain way. The endings of the guards does not present the typical circular flat form of the Portuguese boarding swords from the 15th Century. They are more stylized, but this also was not unusual on this swords, as seen in the example above in the post from Marc. The perforations on the ring guards seem to correspond to stems (pitons), a sort of defenses which now are lacking, probably because of a bad hot-welding work. I don´t have specifics on the forging capabilities of the natives of Angola in the 17th Century (if the date on the blade is correct), but this sword can be a copy of the Portuguese boarding sword made by a local blacksmith, Portuguese or native, but a bungler.

Well, thank you!
And, let's say that everything you wrote exactly matches what i think about this... I didn't write anything because i am not a specialist (not even a "real" collector, sadly), and i didn't want to probably make a fool of myself. But i did some research (not easy to find information on this) and these are my thoughts exactly, i have nothing to add to your comment!
The fullers on the ricasso actually puzzle me, they are not even metallic , but made of some brittle material i couldn't identify.
The blade looks like it was repaired/altered at some point. Almost like it was "reforged", there are some "seams", starting from the middle of the blade to the poin...

RobertGuy, well, the oxidation is not as active as it looks to be, the photos were taken with flash, and that really brightens the orange, but yes, this is quite corroded. Truth is it was found in the open, and worse, on a beach, exposed to salt water for who knows how long...