Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

Oddly enough, given all its numerous other flaws, in this area it's relatively accurate, although a loincloth and mantle counts as overdressed. Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.

The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

[katana]

The 300 spartans were Hoplites, heavily armed infantry.
"Hoplites wore tunics under other armor that included breastplates, helmets, and greaves. They carried spears and swords to use in their close style of fighting. Spartan hoplites also wore a short red cloak and long hair."


http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/g.../g/Hoplite.htm

Without the shields or armour the greeks would never have survived the initial onslought of arrows. Not widely known is the fact that the 300 spartans were aided by 1000 Thespians (no not actors ) and Thebans who elected to stay and fight...although the Thebans surrendered just before the final slaughter.
The Greek armour/shield and military skill with the spear easily kept the 'Immortals' back as they were lightly armoured and had 'wicker' shields.

The spartans were true warriors....their 7-8 year old sons would be taken away from their families and trained in millitary schools, severe injury and death during training was not uncommon. One test on the young boys was to be publicly flogged until they uttered a sound.....the last boy to cry out was the winner Even the women were taught how to fight ....with or without weapons One of the tasks to prove their manhood was to sneak out of the military school ...unseen ...and strangle (to death) a male slave (being a military state much manual labour was done by captured soldiers whom were enslaved) and return...undetected. If caught they were severely punished.

[David]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

...Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.
The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat. As stated in Ariel's source:

The warriors of "300" look like comic-book heroes because they are based on Frank Miller's drawings that emphasized bare torsos, futuristic swords and staged fight scenes. In other words, director Zack Snyder tells the story not in a realistic fashion -- like the mostly failed attempts to recapture the ancient world in recent films such as "Troy" or "Alexander" -- but in the surreal manner of a comic book or video game.
The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body.

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".
Likewise, nudity in sports was an extention of that artistic sense into the actual world. And then, the ancient Greeks also found the male body attractive for completely different reasons outside of it's prowess on the battle or sports field.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by David

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat.

The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body. [/B]

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".

yup

[ariel]

David,
You seem to be implying very heavily ( twice already) that the homosexual practices of ancient Greecs somehow were peculiar to them and cast doubt on their fighting ability and masculinity. Homosexuality was with us for ages, and was widespread. Persians, from antique times to Abbas-ian era and to now were equally involved: they always had brisk market in pretty boys ("surker") and castrated their young captives to preserve their "youthful" appearance.
Even in modern Saudi Arabia, the bastion of consevative Islam, it is so widespread, that the country is regarded as "gay heaven"
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/...y-saudi-arabia
It is not what one does in bed, but what one does on the battlefield that determines military prowess: bisexual Alexander's Macedonians utterly destroyed equally bisexual Darius' Persian army despite numerical inferiority.
Let me assure you: there is "sin" even in Cincinnati

[David]

Sorry Ariel, but you greatly misinterpret the intention of my remarks. This was not at all a commentary on the lifestyle having anything to do with the fighting abilities of the Greeks or anyone else for that matter. I was merely mocking the story for being so homophobic as to leave out this very well know aspect of that culture. Likewise with the film Alexander strongly down played this side of his life. My point is that if you are going to do historic films, even in comic book form, why leave out these aspects of the culture. They might have actually added some depths to the otherwise 2 dimensional characters of 300.
In my second remark i was merely stating the obvious to help support why i felt nudity was common in sports, though not in warfare. Again there was no slight of masculinity implied. I see nothing unmasculine about homosexuality. In fact, i would think that it would have to be quite the opposite, masculinity pushed to it's extreme.
As for "sin" in Sinsinnati....you don't know the half of it my friend.

[Emanuel]

I recently saw the Russian movie "Day Watch" - sequel to "Night Watch". The story happens in the present, more or less, but there is a scene involving Timur-i-Leng (Tamerlane) attacking a fort. He bears what looks like a well-depicted shamshir with a very nice crossguard. This doesn't agree with Timur's 14th century does it?
Could anyone post some pics of Timurid sabres?

Emanuel

[Rick]

Is now out on DVD in US format .
Accurate or not; I just loved this film ..