Movies and Edged Weapons Pt. 2

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by David

My only hope, since i have no real knowledge of the weapons of the time, would be that they might have got the arms and armor right, but somehow i have my doubts.

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

[David]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

But how else would we get to see their fabulous (and CGI identical) six-pack abs?

[ariel]

Perhaps, an opinion from the American pre-eminent military historian, Victor Davis Hanson, could be of help.
http://washingtontimes.com/commentar...5421-8261r.htm

[David]

From the above mentioned article:
True, 2,500 years ago, almost every society in the ancient Mediterranean world had slaves. And all relegated women to a relatively inferior position. Sparta turned the entire region of Messenia into a dependent serf state.
But in the Greek polis alone, there were elected governments, ranging from the constitutional oligarchy at Sparta to much broader-based voting in states like Athens and Thespiae.
Most importantly, only in Greece was there a constant tradition of unfettered expression and self-criticism. Aristophanes, Sophocles and Plato questioned the subordinate position of women. Alcidamas lamented the notion of slavery.


And yet is is my understanding that at that time Persia had already banned slavery and gave far more rights to their women than the Greeks or any other Western culture did at the time, much to the distain of the Greeks.
Pederasty was also the norm in ancient Greece. I didn't see any of that depicted in the film though.
Hey, it's a comic book. I wouldn't argue with anyone about many of the more detail oriented inaccuracies in the film. Exact numbers are unimportant here. 300, 600, 1500, who cares. And yes, the story line was basically taken from the writings of the greeks themselves. Of course the Greeks would depict their attackers as being lesser beings then themselves. This is the way of all war, to depict ones enemy as less than human. But i also see using that skewed Greek viewpoint as dangerous propaganda for our modern times.
But politics and accuracy aside, this film still sucked!
BTW, i didn't find the line, "Then we shall fight in the shade." in reference to the Persian arrows blotting out the sun to be among the corny ones as the author suggests. Rather it was probably the best line in the whole film.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by David

But how else would we get to see their fabulous (and CGI identical) six-pack abs?

Hey, how do you suppose they got all those actors packed with those abs? Or was it just CGI? Most even had 8-packs, let alone the few unlucky with 6

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Manolo

Your doubts are well founded, David. The scimitars they used were nonsense, and I somehow doubts that Spartans ever fought naked (with loincloth and mantle).

Oddly enough, given all its numerous other flaws, in this area it's relatively accurate, although a loincloth and mantle counts as overdressed. Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.

The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

[katana]

The 300 spartans were Hoplites, heavily armed infantry.
"Hoplites wore tunics under other armor that included breastplates, helmets, and greaves. They carried spears and swords to use in their close style of fighting. Spartan hoplites also wore a short red cloak and long hair."


http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/g.../g/Hoplite.htm

Without the shields or armour the greeks would never have survived the initial onslought of arrows. Not widely known is the fact that the 300 spartans were aided by 1000 Thespians (no not actors ) and Thebans who elected to stay and fight...although the Thebans surrendered just before the final slaughter.
The Greek armour/shield and military skill with the spear easily kept the 'Immortals' back as they were lightly armoured and had 'wicker' shields.

The spartans were true warriors....their 7-8 year old sons would be taken away from their families and trained in millitary schools, severe injury and death during training was not uncommon. One test on the young boys was to be publicly flogged until they uttered a sound.....the last boy to cry out was the winner Even the women were taught how to fight ....with or without weapons One of the tasks to prove their manhood was to sneak out of the military school ...unseen ...and strangle (to death) a male slave (being a military state much manual labour was done by captured soldiers whom were enslaved) and return...undetected. If caught they were severely punished.

[David]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

...Friezes, mosaics and pottery from the time depict Greek warriors going into battle with helmet, shield and spear, sometimes with a sword -- and not a stitch of clothing, let alone armor. Oh, I suppose the generals and nobles might've had a bit more, but the average warrior? Not a bit.
The classical Olympic games were held as a celebration of the art of war, and the athletes competed in the games as they would on the battle field -- in the nude. That's one of the reasons why women were banned from attending.

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat. As stated in Ariel's source:

The warriors of "300" look like comic-book heroes because they are based on Frank Miller's drawings that emphasized bare torsos, futuristic swords and staged fight scenes. In other words, director Zack Snyder tells the story not in a realistic fashion -- like the mostly failed attempts to recapture the ancient world in recent films such as "Troy" or "Alexander" -- but in the surreal manner of a comic book or video game.
The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body.

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".
Likewise, nudity in sports was an extention of that artistic sense into the actual world. And then, the ancient Greeks also found the male body attractive for completely different reasons outside of it's prowess on the battle or sports field.

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by David

Romanticized depictions in Greek art should not be confused with the realities of common sense combat.

The Greeks themselves often embraced such impressionistic adaptation. Ancient vase painters sometimes did not portray soldiers accurately in their bulky armor. Instead, they used "heroic nudity" to show the contours of the human body. [/B]

In other words, this nudity wasn't a true representation of Greek warriors in battle, but artistic license meant to show the beauty of "heroic nudity".

yup

[ariel]

David,
You seem to be implying very heavily ( twice already) that the homosexual practices of ancient Greecs somehow were peculiar to them and cast doubt on their fighting ability and masculinity. Homosexuality was with us for ages, and was widespread. Persians, from antique times to Abbas-ian era and to now were equally involved: they always had brisk market in pretty boys ("surker") and castrated their young captives to preserve their "youthful" appearance.
Even in modern Saudi Arabia, the bastion of consevative Islam, it is so widespread, that the country is regarded as "gay heaven"
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/...y-saudi-arabia
It is not what one does in bed, but what one does on the battlefield that determines military prowess: bisexual Alexander's Macedonians utterly destroyed equally bisexual Darius' Persian army despite numerical inferiority.
Let me assure you: there is "sin" even in Cincinnati

[David]

Sorry Ariel, but you greatly misinterpret the intention of my remarks. This was not at all a commentary on the lifestyle having anything to do with the fighting abilities of the Greeks or anyone else for that matter. I was merely mocking the story for being so homophobic as to leave out this very well know aspect of that culture. Likewise with the film Alexander strongly down played this side of his life. My point is that if you are going to do historic films, even in comic book form, why leave out these aspects of the culture. They might have actually added some depths to the otherwise 2 dimensional characters of 300.
In my second remark i was merely stating the obvious to help support why i felt nudity was common in sports, though not in warfare. Again there was no slight of masculinity implied. I see nothing unmasculine about homosexuality. In fact, i would think that it would have to be quite the opposite, masculinity pushed to it's extreme.
As for "sin" in Sinsinnati....you don't know the half of it my friend.

[Emanuel]

I recently saw the Russian movie "Day Watch" - sequel to "Night Watch". The story happens in the present, more or less, but there is a scene involving Timur-i-Leng (Tamerlane) attacking a fort. He bears what looks like a well-depicted shamshir with a very nice crossguard. This doesn't agree with Timur's 14th century does it?
Could anyone post some pics of Timurid sabres?

Emanuel