Photo thread: ROYALTY SWORDS , ARMS & ARMOUR from around the world

ksbhati · 23rd February 2005, 09:36 AM

Hi B.I.

Nice post with an interesting connection. Just a thought....The dagger in the painting does not have the top scabbard mount whereas the actual dagger does....?? Do you think the painter could have made a mistake like that considering that he was doing a painting with so much realistic detail...that too for the emperor of India...where mistakes could mean the loss of your head...?? Must admit though that it does look like the emperors dagger

.

Regards,

Karni

B.I · 23rd February 2005, 10:43 AM

hi karni,
no, i think that the dagger in the miniature just backs up the quote from jahangirs memoirs -
''to make dagger-hilts of a shape that was approved at this time''
i think that with the al saba dagger, the wallace dagger and the one displayed in the miniature which shows a slightly different form of decoration, it shows the popularity of this style of weapon during jahangirs reign. as the 3 pieces show a very high quality and a display of wealth, it would be hard to assume that the al saba piece was the one described and revered by jahangir. i would say it probably was, but who knows.
what jahangir actually said was -

''one hilt came out in such a way as to create astonishment. it turned out of all the seven colours, and some of the flowers looked as if a skillful painter had depicted them in black lines round it with a wonder-working pencil. in short, it was so delicate that i wish it never to be apart from me for a moment. of all the gems of great price that are in the treasury i consider it the most precious. on thursday i girded it auspiciously with joy around my waist, and the masters who in their completion had exercised great skill and taken pains were rewarded, Ustad Puran with the gift of an elephant, a dress of honour, and a golden bracelet for the wrist, which the people of india call kara, and Kalyan with the title of 'aja ib-dast' (wondrous hand), and increased mansab (rank), a dress of honour, and a jewelled bracelet, and in the smae way everyone according to his circumstances and skill recieved favours.''

welch says the al saba dagger could have been made by these two masters, but doesnt actually commit to it being the one described in these memoirs. maybe it was, but i am not sure what the seven colours he referred to was.
either way, i think all can be connected to the courts of jahangir, which is provenance enough.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 11:46 AM

Hi Brian, have a look here, this could be the ‘seven colours’ mentioned. Here is the link. http://www.colorsystem.com/projekte/engl/66isle.htm
'In the Islamic tradition, colour is primarily seen from a metaphysical viewpoint which allows the duality of light and shadow to be recognised as the continuous possibility pervading the universe. The number seven dominates the traditional palette of colours, which are arranged in groups of three and four, with the two systems being linked. One order is based on the three colours black, white and sandlewood (related to the colour of the earth), while the other is centred on the four colours red, yellow green and blue.'

B.I · 23rd February 2005, 12:00 PM

hey jens,
where on earth do you find this information

its a very interesting concept and one i would normally steer clear of, except that i know that this would have played a significant part in the thinking of the day.
however, 'The number seven is of great cosmological significance' makes me want to start burning josticks

i think these seven colours must have been of great importance of the time, enough for jahangir to make an issue of it.
fascinating stuff!

ksbhati · 23rd February 2005, 07:02 PM

Thank you B.I.

Point well taken. Fascinating stuff really....!!

Regards,

Karni

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd February 2005, 09:45 PM

I know Brian, the numbers were very important, as were the colours, the flowers and the animals. Unfortunately many does not recognise this to day - that may be why they find it so difficult to understand it all - the few tho tries to understand!

WCPlatt · 24th March 2005, 04:21 AM

Hey, I've got a book on Suleyman. It's called _Des Zeitalter Süleymans
Des Prächtigen_ by M.J. Rogers & R.M. Ward.

Here's a picture of a crystal gripped dagger that might have belonged
to the royal guy himself. Maybe his family. German's not my native language.

Also my first graphic upload. Never too late to learn, I guess.

Ah, file too large. Hold on...

23rd February 2005, 09:36 AM	#1
ksbhati Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Rajasthan, INDIA Posts: 25	Re: Jehangirs Chilanum... Hi B.I. Nice post with an interesting connection. Just a thought....The dagger in the painting does not have the top scabbard mount whereas the actual dagger does....?? Do you think the painter could have made a mistake like that considering that he was doing a painting with so much realistic detail...that too for the emperor of India...where mistakes could mean the loss of your head...?? Must admit though that it does look like the emperors dagger . Regards, Karni

24th March 2005, 04:21 AM	#7
WCPlatt Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 2	My first post around these parts Hey, I've got a book on Suleyman. It's called _Des Zeitalter Süleymans Des Prächtigen_ by M.J. Rogers & R.M. Ward. Here's a picture of a crystal gripped dagger that might have belonged to the royal guy himself. Maybe his family. German's not my native language. Also my first graphic upload. Never too late to learn, I guess. Ah, file too large. Hold on... Last edited by WCPlatt; 24th March 2005 at 04:34 AM.

23rd February 2005, 10:43 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi karni, no, i think that the dagger in the miniature just backs up the quote from jahangirs memoirs - ''to make dagger-hilts of a shape that was approved at this time'' i think that with the al saba dagger, the wallace dagger and the one displayed in the miniature which shows a slightly different form of decoration, it shows the popularity of this style of weapon during jahangirs reign. as the 3 pieces show a very high quality and a display of wealth, it would be hard to assume that the al saba piece was the one described and revered by jahangir. i would say it probably was, but who knows. what jahangir actually said was - ''one hilt came out in such a way as to create astonishment. it turned out of all the seven colours, and some of the flowers looked as if a skillful painter had depicted them in black lines round it with a wonder-working pencil. in short, it was so delicate that i wish it never to be apart from me for a moment. of all the gems of great price that are in the treasury i consider it the most precious. on thursday i girded it auspiciously with joy around my waist, and the masters who in their completion had exercised great skill and taken pains were rewarded, Ustad Puran with the gift of an elephant, a dress of honour, and a golden bracelet for the wrist, which the people of india call kara, and Kalyan with the title of 'aja ib-dast' (wondrous hand), and increased mansab (rank), a dress of honour, and a jewelled bracelet, and in the smae way everyone according to his circumstances and skill recieved favours.'' welch says the al saba dagger could have been made by these two masters, but doesnt actually commit to it being the one described in these memoirs. maybe it was, but i am not sure what the seven colours he referred to was. either way, i think all can be connected to the courts of jahangir, which is provenance enough.

23rd February 2005, 11:46 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Brian, have a look here, this could be the ‘seven colours’ mentioned. Here is the link. http://www.colorsystem.com/projekte/engl/66isle.htm 'In the Islamic tradition, colour is primarily seen from a metaphysical viewpoint which allows the duality of light and shadow to be recognised as the continuous possibility pervading the universe. The number seven dominates the traditional palette of colours, which are arranged in groups of three and four, with the two systems being linked. One order is based on the three colours black, white and sandlewood (related to the colour of the earth), while the other is centred on the four colours red, yellow green and blue.'

23rd February 2005, 12:00 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hey jens, where on earth do you find this information its a very interesting concept and one i would normally steer clear of, except that i know that this would have played a significant part in the thinking of the day. however, 'The number seven is of great cosmological significance' makes me want to start burning josticks i think these seven colours must have been of great importance of the time, enough for jahangir to make an issue of it. fascinating stuff!

23rd February 2005, 07:02 PM	#5
ksbhati Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Rajasthan, INDIA Posts: 25	Thank you B.I. Point well taken. Fascinating stuff really....!! Regards, Karni

23rd February 2005, 09:45 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I know Brian, the numbers were very important, as were the colours, the flowers and the animals. Unfortunately many does not recognise this to day - that may be why they find it so difficult to understand it all - the few tho tries to understand!