Kris Cundrik or kris patrem ?

David · 11th March 2007, 06:48 PM

Michel, this would probably be described as a patrem. A cundrik is a somewhat different animal with a very different style of dapur. There is some good discussion of cundrik on this old thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30

VVV · 11th March 2007, 08:15 PM

Maybe Michel meant the other kind of Cundrik (the non sword version), related to the Keris Sajen/Majapahit?
Anyway I don't think that this Keris is a Cundrik.

Michael

Pangeran Datu · 11th March 2007, 09:06 PM

G'day all,

Until there is a standard recognised by all:

- 'Cundrik' is used by many people to refer to keris which are smaller than 'normal' (a traditional measure is a handspan or less).
The preferred 'standard' term is 'Patrem'.
- The keris 'Cundrik' form is for straight keris. Its main feature is that it has a very long, plain 'gandik' which is located at the back, i.e. the 'ganja' is reverse-oriented.

Cheers.

A. G. Maisey · 11th March 2007, 10:06 PM

As Pangeran Datu points out, the word cunderik can have a number of meanings.

It is a dapur for a Javanese keris, it is the name of a stabbing weapon found in Lombok, it has been given by some people to a small talismanic weapon.

In Solo it seems to be applied to just about any short dagger that another name cannot be found for.In modern Javanese it means " a short dagger".

Personally, I think the word "cunderik" is a good word to stay away from, if possible.

This little keris is a keris patrem.

Michel · 12th March 2007, 06:04 PM

Thank you for sharing your knowlege.
I conclude that this kris is a kris patrem.

So should be the following one, if I can say :
Kris patrem Palembang, blade of 17.5 cm, handle of 7 cm.

I had to forge a ganja, as it had none, to make the sarong, the original was completely broken and remake a simple mendak. My work can be severely criticized, but is was the only way for me to include it in my panoply of small east Asian weapons.

Michel

Alam Shah · 12th March 2007, 06:54 PM

Hi could we see bigger pictures of the piece, please.

So that we can comment accordingly on the piece and your handiwork.

Btw, nice collection display.
I especially like the kerambit, rencong and tumbuk lada.

David · 12th March 2007, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Maybe Michel meant the other kind of Cundrik (the non sword version), related to the Keris Sajen/Majapahit?
Anyway I don't think that this Keris is a Cundrik.

Michael

Even if this is so is not the cundrik that is related to the keris sajen a somewhat different shape and form than the keris? I think Alan is right that in this case it is a term best left out.

Michel, you forged the gonjo and made the sheath from scratch. I'd say that's admirable even if some lines are off. I would also like to see a closer image

I can say this without the close-up. That hilt is too big for this ensemble. More importantly than to the blade, the hilt must be in prooer proportion to the sheath so that it created an acceptable look when the keris is sheathed. Of course you could, given your skills, make a larger sheath for this keris.

Michel · 12th March 2007, 10:13 PM

Well, I will post bigger pictures, but you can understand that I do not like to expose all my errors !!
Most of the pieces in the panoply have a history, as I forge and made the sheath of the rencong Aceh on the left, the sarong of the small kris in the upper left (you can see the angle is not correct) we talked already of the kris patrem in the center, but below is a kris panjang that was broken, but Nick Rashidin Nik Hussein (Kota Baru) thought that the kris was worth a sarong and a handle and he carved it for me. The badig in the lower right is a beauty.
The grandmother of my wife was sitting in the middle of this big frame on a photo, sometime in the 1920 and I had to restore the frame before organizing the panoply.
I will be coming back but not tonight anymore !
Michel

Alam Shah · 13th March 2007, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Well, I will post bigger pictures, but you can understand that I do not like to expose all my errors !!

Lol... don't worry, we're not here to criticize one's work. I personally think that you made a good effort to do such. With correction, you would be able to improve on the current, taking into mind for the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

Most of the pieces in the panoply have a history, as I forge and made the sheath of the rencong Aceh on the left, the sarong of the small kris in the upper left (you can see the angle is not correct) we talked already of the kris patrem in the center,... .

I have two broken rencong sheath. One had been repaired while another, I'm keeping it 'as is'.

(Click below for the link.)
[Rencong Aceh, Sumatra, Hulu Meucangge],
[Rencong Aceh, Sumatra, Hulu Puntung].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

...but below is a kris panjang that was broken, but Nick Rashidin Nik Hussein (Kota Baru) thought that the kris was worth a sarong and a handle and he carved it for me.

The fittings are beautiful.
Can we see the blade, please?
Was it broken when you got it or it had already been fixed?
The panjang form have similar shorter forms known as bahari, alang and anak alang.

Regarding the late Nik Rashidin... you're lucky to get a master's touch.

I see the fittings are of excellent worksmanship, I can see the 'eye' in the middle of the sheath which is in a 'debek' form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

The badik in the lower right is a beauty. The grandmother of my wife was sitting in the middle of this big frame on a photo, sometime in the 1920 and I had to restore the frame before organizing the panoply.
I will be coming back but not tonight anymore !
Michel

Maybe we can talk about these as well, one at a time, in another thread, (if you don't mind).

Michel · 13th March 2007, 06:24 PM

Thank you Alam Shah for your analysis.
I join here a few pictures of this kris patrem.
You can see that the ganja was made in several layers of welded iron. I had real difficulty to weld such a small piece as to maintain the heat for such a small piece is a difficulty that Alan Maisey will certainly explain better than I can do.
You can also see my difficulty in silvering the the mendak made in copper !
I love the Hulu that I find very elegant. It has a specific name which I cant recall ! Hulu Jambi or Palembang ?
The sampir was in fact recovered and is to my knowlege palembang but the gandar was remade in the closest wood I could find here in Switzerland but it is not too good.
I will make an other message for your the other remarks
Michel

Michel · 13th March 2007, 06:39 PM

The next is the rencong Aceh.
I love these weapons with their very surprising handle.
For this one I made everything from the blade to the sarong and handle. As I could not find horn or rather black horn nor ebony ((I had to purchase a 100kg piece for a 100gr need !) I replace it by black colored pear tree wood.
The top and bottom par are in gnarl of oak. (excresence of the wood that gives interesting colors and forms as in the kemuning. i.e the eye in the middle of the sheath made by Nik Rashidin)
So much for this one !
A first look at the other rencong: simple but nicely done. Sheath and handle in horn.
Michel

Alam Shah · 14th March 2007, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

... You can see that the ganja was made in several layers of welded iron. I had real difficulty to weld such a small piece as to maintain the heat for such a small piece is a difficulty that Alan Maisey will certainly explain better than I can do.

Thank you for showing us your pieces. Imho, the general outline of the ganja is ok. The length is a little bit too short but at least it got a replacement. The layering is good. With patination, it should blend well with the blade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

You can also see my difficulty in silvering the mendak made in copper !
I love the Hulu that I find very elegant. It has a specific name which I cant recall ! Hulu Jambi or Palembang ?

The Palembang Hulu Topeng (mask) is elegant. I like it too. A good effort with the selut. It's tough fabricating from copper.
Have a look at these. The base of the selut are narrower, preferbly fits nicely like the 1st example. These seluts are normally made of silver or white metal. Ive seen some made of 'suassa', (an alloy mix of gold, copper and sometimes other metals). These are softer materials and easier to work with.
(pictures courtesy of BluErf)
[Palembang Selut example 1], [Palembang Selut example 2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michel

The sampir was in fact recovered and is to my knowlege palembang but the gandar was remade in the closest wood I could find here in Switzerland but it is not too good.
I will make an other message for your the other remarks
Michel

A good effort. The wood looks ok, too. The gandar is rather narrower than usual. See the examples of normal Palembang gandars. It's normally broader and less 'roundish' at the bottom, compared to Javanese gandars (in general).
(pictures courtesy of BluErf)
[Palembang gandar 1], [Palembang gandar 2]

Just some comparisons, for our mutual references.

12th March 2007, 06:04 PM	#5
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thank you for sharing your knowlege. I conclude that this kris is a kris patrem. So should be the following one, if I can say : Kris patrem Palembang, blade of 17.5 cm, handle of 7 cm. I had to forge a ganja, as it had none, to make the sarong, the original was completely broken and remake a simple mendak. My work can be severely criticized, but is was the only way for me to include it in my panoply of small east Asian weapons. Michel Attached Images

13th March 2007, 06:24 PM	#10
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Thank you Alam Shah for your analysis. I join here a few pictures of this kris patrem. You can see that the ganja was made in several layers of welded iron. I had real difficulty to weld such a small piece as to maintain the heat for such a small piece is a difficulty that Alan Maisey will certainly explain better than I can do. You can also see my difficulty in silvering the the mendak made in copper ! I love the Hulu that I find very elegant. It has a specific name which I cant recall ! Hulu Jambi or Palembang ? The sampir was in fact recovered and is to my knowlege palembang but the gandar was remade in the closest wood I could find here in Switzerland but it is not too good. I will make an other message for your the other remarks Michel Attached Images

13th March 2007, 06:39 PM	#11
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	The next is the rencong Aceh. I love these weapons with their very surprising handle. For this one I made everything from the blade to the sarong and handle. As I could not find horn or rather black horn nor ebony ((I had to purchase a 100kg piece for a 100gr need !) I replace it by black colored pear tree wood. The top and bottom par are in gnarl of oak. (excresence of the wood that gives interesting colors and forms as in the kemuning. i.e the eye in the middle of the sheath made by Nik Rashidin) So much for this one ! A first look at the other rencong: simple but nicely done. Sheath and handle in horn. Michel Attached Images

11th March 2007, 06:48 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Michel, this would probably be described as a patrem. A cundrik is a somewhat different animal with a very different style of dapur. There is some good discussion of cundrik on this old thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...9&page=2&pp=30

11th March 2007, 08:15 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Maybe Michel meant the other kind of Cundrik (the non sword version), related to the Keris Sajen/Majapahit? Anyway I don't think that this Keris is a Cundrik. Michael

11th March 2007, 09:06 PM	#3
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	G'day all, Until there is a standard recognised by all: - 'Cundrik' is used by many people to refer to keris which are smaller than 'normal' (a traditional measure is a handspan or less). The preferred 'standard' term is 'Patrem'. - The keris 'Cundrik' form is for straight keris. Its main feature is that it has a very long, plain 'gandik' which is located at the back, i.e. the 'ganja' is reverse-oriented. Cheers.

11th March 2007, 10:06 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	As Pangeran Datu points out, the word cunderik can have a number of meanings. It is a dapur for a Javanese keris, it is the name of a stabbing weapon found in Lombok, it has been given by some people to a small talismanic weapon. In Solo it seems to be applied to just about any short dagger that another name cannot be found for.In modern Javanese it means " a short dagger". Personally, I think the word "cunderik" is a good word to stay away from, if possible. This little keris is a keris patrem.

12th March 2007, 06:54 PM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi could we see bigger pictures of the piece, please. So that we can comment accordingly on the piece and your handiwork. Btw, nice collection display. I especially like the kerambit, rencong and tumbuk lada.

12th March 2007, 10:13 PM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Well, I will post bigger pictures, but you can understand that I do not like to expose all my errors !! Most of the pieces in the panoply have a history, as I forge and made the sheath of the rencong Aceh on the left, the sarong of the small kris in the upper left (you can see the angle is not correct) we talked already of the kris patrem in the center, but below is a kris panjang that was broken, but Nick Rashidin Nik Hussein (Kota Baru) thought that the kris was worth a sarong and a handle and he carved it for me. The badig in the lower right is a beauty. The grandmother of my wife was sitting in the middle of this big frame on a photo, sometime in the 1920 and I had to restore the frame before organizing the panoply. I will be coming back but not tonight anymore ! Michel