japanese sword ( genuine or fake ??? )

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm not sure that this is a WWII blade. An oil tempered blade would look frosty at the temper and the pattern is consitent. Oil tempered blades were usually machine made blades and did not even have a hada (grain).

I might try sending it to a US polisher and pay for him to polish a "window", a small section of the blade to see if there is any grain and thus if it is worth a true polish, older or WWII machine made blade.

Another possiblility is to try the nihonto guys over at the Swordforum.com under the Nihon-to section with your pictures.

thanks battara,
for this moment I just gonna keep the sword.
I have no experience sending sword overseas, do you have any suggestion which polisher I should send my sword to?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

thanks battara,
for this moment I just gonna keep the sword.
I have no experience sending sword overseas, do you have any suggestion which polisher I should send my sword to?

Hi Ferrylaki.

Even if no expert would make a definitive reply based on these poor pictures
I've no reputation to loose so here are my 2 cents :

your sword *possibly* is an antique one (pre WWII) that was mounted in
Shingunto way (WWII officer mounts) hence the two smaller holes before
and after the original bigger one. The one toward the blade is the one that
originally hosted the screw-like Mekugi, the one near the end of the tang
hosted the "Sarute", a ring holding a knot changing in colors accordingly to
the officer's rank. Might be the sword has been shortened for this purpose,
(to fullfill the army's requirements or for mounting reasons) as the shape of
the tang seems odd and the absence of another older mekugiana (hole for
retaining pin) suggests it hasn't been shortened in ancient times for
remounting.
You can eventually confirm/deny this telling us something about the
provenance and the mounting if info available.

Your sword has been bring back by some GI's and later left in oblivion till to
begun very rusty.
Someone not trained to Togi (traditional japanese polishing) attempted to
give it some dignity but destroyed the lines and possibly exposed the inner
steel (you show only one side of the blade). Then, in some way the sword
reached your hands (gift/purchase/inherited).

The matter if it worths the money of a traditional polishing is a personal one.
I've lost money on some swords that appealed to me but that
weren't economically worth the polishing. I'm a romantic.

Still exists the possibility your sword is a machine made one or a fake.
These lines are written at 02,17 PM italian time and online judgements that
pretends to be accurate (on NihonTo, at least) are simply a foolish thing.

Cheers.

[tsubame1]

The more I watch at it, the less I'm convinced.
The difference in dimension between the mekugiana is something that puzzle
me.
Usually multiple ancient mekugiana have roughly the same dimensions












but even ancestral blades mounted in Shingunto are not different :

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm






and Shinshinto handachi mounted swords (Handachi is an Edo period mounting similar to Shingunto, with Sarute) are similar in placement but still with the
same larger dimensions in the holes :



This last has not been shortened. I'm sure because it's mine.

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

The more I watch at it, the less I'm convinced.
The difference in dimension between the mekugiana is something that puzzle
me.
Usually multiple ancient mekugiana have roughly the same dimensions












but even ancestral blades mounted in Shingunto are not different :



thanks ,
this sword diffenetely been shortened. the two small ana are added later. and the tang has been cut. if only we can see the hamon, it would be easier for us to say whether it is old or a gunto WWII period.
I found the sword has wooden saya covered with brown leather...it is a shingunto mounth am I right?

best regards,

ferry

http://www.h4.dion.ne.jp/~t-ohmura/gunto_023.htm






and Shinshinto handachi mounted swords (Handachi is an Edo period mounting similar to Shingunto, with Sarute) are similar in placement but still with the
same larger dimensions in the holes :



This last has not been shortened. I'm sure because it's mine.

thanks ,
this sword diffenetely been shortened. the two small ana are added later. and the tang has been cut. if only we can see the hamon, it would be easier for us to say whether it is old or a gunto WWII period.
I found the sword has wooden saya covered with brown leather...it is a shingunto mounth am I right?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

I found the sword has wooden saya covered with brown leather...it is a shingunto mounth am I right?

A wooden saya covered with brown leather (if not fake) may have been
a civilian one adapted to military service. If it's laquered other then military
green, most likely it was.
IF not a fake.
Hereunder how the cover should look like.
See also http://127.0.0.1:800/Default/www.h4..../gunto_034.htm

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

A wooden saya covered with brown leather (if not fake) may have been
a civilian one adapted to military service. If it's laquered other then military
green, most likely it was.
IF not a fake.
Hereunder how the cover should look like.
See also http://127.0.0.1:800/Default/www.h4..../gunto_034.htm

HI,
it has the saya just like your picture, but in bad condition.
with three clip , the ring and a hanger ( in plain decoration ).
so it is a civilian sword mounted in shingunto way.
thank you very much...

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

A wooden saya covered with brown leather (if not fake) may have been
a civilian one adapted to military service. If it's laquered other then military
green, most likely it was.
IF not a fake.
Hereunder how the cover should look like.
See also http://127.0.0.1:800/Default/www.h4..../gunto_034.htm

here is the saya, I just got the picture and the saya.

[tsubame1]

Sorry for late reply Ferrylaki but seems my e-mail doesn't receive
addvise of new posting in subscibed threads. I've to check my profile.

Now chances you've an antique one remounted for WWII purpose are
increased. Likely the assumption "re-mounted, in oblivion and then badly
polished" is the right one. Don't sell the saya (obvious enough..).
Don't make anything more on your own to the blade and tang other then oiling/cleaning it with paper unshented tissues.
Remove the Habaki (collar), keep the blade lightly oiled and OUT of that saya because likely it retain moisture. Mineral oil, not engine one.
Simply wrap the oiled blade in newspapers.
Your climate should be very humid. think about this when you choose the place where to store the blade waiting to find someone knowledgeable enough
to make an "on-hand" appraisal. NihonTo Message Board surely can address
you to someone to have a window polished to have a better
understanding of the period and to evaluate an eventual restoration.
Remember that such restoration will mean a complete polishing, a new plain wood scabbard and handle (shirasaya) and most likely a new Habaki (collar) too. Not a cheap trip, and possibly not economically convenient.
Depends on what sort out from that "window".
Be aware. NihonTo are like vampires. Once you've been beaten you are doomed...