Very Interesting Indian sword for discussion

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2005, 06:01 AM

While I am the first to defend the authors of books published on arms and armour, especially the venerable references that have served us for so many years, I am keen to defend only the material that maintains merit. That which has been either superceded or refuted serves only as dated material which reflects a benchmark in the progression of research, and is typically regarded as such by advanced students of arms & armour who recognize it as such.
I suppose this would be much like watching one of the classic old movies, the material is clearly dated, but the story remains well told and in perspective despite being viewed in a time with obviously much more advanced technology and environment. I still maintain that these authors deserve respect for having had the courage and tenacity to publish despite whatever flaws are inherent in thier work.

With Pant, Brian has astutely presented a caveat to this book as a reference and very gently noted the primarily business oriented ajenda which was one of the key forces in compiling this book. While Dr.Pant clearly brings in much of the data from earlier writers, he does make an effort to qualify and place in perspective much of the material he uses. One of the key problems with this work is that Pant attempts to abitrarily place indiginous provenance and typology on weapon forms and types without clearly supported evidence.
This problem as well as the dating of the various examples illustrated in the plates results from the museum cataloguing which relies on the period or region where the weapon was collected, often unaccurately and using presumed period attribution. Still these examples serve as outstanding references for experienced students of these weapons, who are well aware of the periods and characteristics which they actually represent.Those who are seriously pursuing the study of Indian arms at more of an entry level, would do well to use this book as a guide to further research, as a benchmark to build upon.

Radu, in the yataghan thread he has referenced, made the observation that these weapons were not just confined to limited regions, which was well placed. The same principle applies here, and it would be just as futile to assign a provenance to this sabre so finite as 'Gujerat/Rajasthan'. While seemingly a pretty safe statement, as well as the notation of Mughal attribution that corresponds supposedly to these regions, it is important to note the much wider scope of the Mughal Empire, which extended well into southern India. It would be quite easy to suggest Gujerat as a provenence for a weapon, since this was a key trade region, so many weapons would be presumed or noted as from there. It is the same with Rajasthan, which was a primary industrial region and in fact still produces swords there today.

I think Brian has well noted that these recoiled knuckleguards are not a particularly Indian characteristic, in fact the guard itself I would consider an indicator of European influence.The stylized motif on many of these does seem Persian, which of course did heavily influence Mughal India quite predominantly, as well as Central Asia, where this recoiled style guard also appears in degree and variation.

In our discussions, I think that presenting speculation and suppositions what this is all about, and using whatever resources or observations these are based on is essential. The idea is that any opposing or different ideas should be presented in kind. It's never about who is right or wrong, it's about learning together!!

No finger pointing allowed!!!

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 22nd February 2005, 09:32 AM

jim,
i know you are aware of the importance i put on my library, and the respect i have for the authors that occupy it. i feel all my books have a good reason for being there, whether as an academic minefield of information or just a great picture book.
my 'criticism' of references stemmed from trying to steer away from information that has been widely circulated but may have no real founding. i stick to my opinion of pant, feeling that he wrote some very helpful books on indian arms but he got enough wrong to classify them as good picture books and not academic resources.
i dont have a problem with radu's gujerat theory, as he clearly states it is supposition. if he takes this from pant, as well as his own experience then you can agree or disagree, but as this is no real information, it must be taken at face value.
with all the information i've tried to provide in influences, there were none to determine direct origins. yes, the north were heavily influenced by persia in the mughal courts, but so were the sultanates of the south.
as a feeling, with no firm support, i would think this sword hails from south india as, besides the persian influence, it has that feel. this opinion has no more, nor less grounding than radus gujerat and not something we can ever argue against. ths post has been very informative all round, in both the information provided and the opinions offered. as long as we clearly define the two, there can be no confusion.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 02:33 PM

Hi Rick,
Maybe it is stylized flowers shown on your hilt, but I am not sure.
I would like to show you some examples, but I think I better do this in another thread, otherwise your thread will end up in a mess, and that would be a pity.
Jens

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd February 2005, 05:35 PM

Maratha. 18th to 19th Century.
From Holstein: Contribution a L’etude des Armes Orientales. Vol. II, Pl. VII, No 244.

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2005, 02:10 AM

Hi Brian,
Extremely well said, and we are in complete agreement on these points. I always find it difficult when a published work does reveal flaws or errors as I have spoken out often on the importance of respecting an author's work.
As I had earlier noted, I agree that it is equally important for those who pursue research on the same subject matter to define key errors and offer revised data. This must be done with caution, so as not to demean the author himself.
I think that you always employ such respectful candor in regard to such work , and your observations are most important, considering the wealth of knowledge you have garnered in the research you have done on Indian weapons.

I also agree with you on the 'feel' of this weapon, which as you note seems to suggest southern India, and agree that it is at this point mostly the gestalt of the weapon rather than any particular evidence which brings this perception. After the inclination toward that attribution, I think the weapon Jens illustrated offers some support toward our theory, with a Maratha weapon with similar fleuret form quillon terminals. I had been considering the collateral Tipu-esque characteristics and the fact that Hyder and Tipu were both highly influenced by the French militarily as well. Again, all of this is ,as you say, speculation with a degree of plausibility, and not necessarily evidence.

I think Radu is extremely observant in his suggestion on possible Gujerat provenance, and think it is important to bring all theories and possibilities to the table for discussion, as we have here. Now to bring in any supporting evidence that may provide support for that suggestion, as well as to add to any for the southern India provenance. Actually all of this may be a formidable task, as trade and Mughal suzerainty consistantly connected regions from the northwest, to Hyderabad and Mysore in central southern India. Persian influence prevailed throughout the Mughal empire, therefore the observation concerning such influence in this sword is also well placed.

All the best,
Jim

B.I · 24th February 2005, 08:45 AM

hi jim,
i agree, that its difficult to criticise authors that you may not completely agree with, but still hold in great esteem for the efforts and work they provided. i suppose if you take any book and just pull out the raw facts, without the opinions and lifted data, then you wouldnt be left with much (a lot of pictures). i respect all authours for having the guts, and the time and inclination to publish. i respect tirris efforts as, whether you agree or disagree with him, its still a useful book.
all we can do is note references and influences, as all else is speculation. whether we agree on other opinions or not, i suppose we have to respect them as they have founding as much as your own (as long as it clearly stated to be speculation

).
my feeling has always been south and the floral quillions in jens' image shows this influence. the mysore pieces from tipu/hyder ali also show this, and the pieces in the clive collection back this up. however, the floral quillion was also prevelant on mughal miniatures from the north and so this feeling lends towards assumption. when hard data lacks, all you have to go by is your own feeling and experiences, but this doesnt lend to a forum discussion. if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

Andrew · 25th February 2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum

So do you want to tell me about your parents now or later, Brian?

22nd February 2005, 05:35 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maratha. 18th to 19th Century. From Holstein: Contribution a L’etude des Armes Orientales. Vol. II, Pl. VII, No 244. Attached Images

22nd February 2005, 06:01 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	While I am the first to defend the authors of books published on arms and armour, especially the venerable references that have served us for so many years, I am keen to defend only the material that maintains merit. That which has been either superceded or refuted serves only as dated material which reflects a benchmark in the progression of research, and is typically regarded as such by advanced students of arms & armour who recognize it as such. I suppose this would be much like watching one of the classic old movies, the material is clearly dated, but the story remains well told and in perspective despite being viewed in a time with obviously much more advanced technology and environment. I still maintain that these authors deserve respect for having had the courage and tenacity to publish despite whatever flaws are inherent in thier work. With Pant, Brian has astutely presented a caveat to this book as a reference and very gently noted the primarily business oriented ajenda which was one of the key forces in compiling this book. While Dr.Pant clearly brings in much of the data from earlier writers, he does make an effort to qualify and place in perspective much of the material he uses. One of the key problems with this work is that Pant attempts to abitrarily place indiginous provenance and typology on weapon forms and types without clearly supported evidence. This problem as well as the dating of the various examples illustrated in the plates results from the museum cataloguing which relies on the period or region where the weapon was collected, often unaccurately and using presumed period attribution. Still these examples serve as outstanding references for experienced students of these weapons, who are well aware of the periods and characteristics which they actually represent.Those who are seriously pursuing the study of Indian arms at more of an entry level, would do well to use this book as a guide to further research, as a benchmark to build upon. Radu, in the yataghan thread he has referenced, made the observation that these weapons were not just confined to limited regions, which was well placed. The same principle applies here, and it would be just as futile to assign a provenance to this sabre so finite as 'Gujerat/Rajasthan'. While seemingly a pretty safe statement, as well as the notation of Mughal attribution that corresponds supposedly to these regions, it is important to note the much wider scope of the Mughal Empire, which extended well into southern India. It would be quite easy to suggest Gujerat as a provenence for a weapon, since this was a key trade region, so many weapons would be presumed or noted as from there. It is the same with Rajasthan, which was a primary industrial region and in fact still produces swords there today. I think Brian has well noted that these recoiled knuckleguards are not a particularly Indian characteristic, in fact the guard itself I would consider an indicator of European influence.The stylized motif on many of these does seem Persian, which of course did heavily influence Mughal India quite predominantly, as well as Central Asia, where this recoiled style guard also appears in degree and variation. In our discussions, I think that presenting speculation and suppositions what this is all about, and using whatever resources or observations these are based on is essential. The idea is that any opposing or different ideas should be presented in kind. It's never about who is right or wrong, it's about learning together!! No finger pointing allowed!!! All the best, Jim

22nd February 2005, 09:32 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	jim, i know you are aware of the importance i put on my library, and the respect i have for the authors that occupy it. i feel all my books have a good reason for being there, whether as an academic minefield of information or just a great picture book. my 'criticism' of references stemmed from trying to steer away from information that has been widely circulated but may have no real founding. i stick to my opinion of pant, feeling that he wrote some very helpful books on indian arms but he got enough wrong to classify them as good picture books and not academic resources. i dont have a problem with radu's gujerat theory, as he clearly states it is supposition. if he takes this from pant, as well as his own experience then you can agree or disagree, but as this is no real information, it must be taken at face value. with all the information i've tried to provide in influences, there were none to determine direct origins. yes, the north were heavily influenced by persia in the mughal courts, but so were the sultanates of the south. as a feeling, with no firm support, i would think this sword hails from south india as, besides the persian influence, it has that feel. this opinion has no more, nor less grounding than radus gujerat and not something we can ever argue against. ths post has been very informative all round, in both the information provided and the opinions offered. as long as we clearly define the two, there can be no confusion.

22nd February 2005, 02:33 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Rick, Maybe it is stylized flowers shown on your hilt, but I am not sure. I would like to show you some examples, but I think I better do this in another thread, otherwise your thread will end up in a mess, and that would be a pity. Jens

24th February 2005, 02:10 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Hi Brian, Extremely well said, and we are in complete agreement on these points. I always find it difficult when a published work does reveal flaws or errors as I have spoken out often on the importance of respecting an author's work. As I had earlier noted, I agree that it is equally important for those who pursue research on the same subject matter to define key errors and offer revised data. This must be done with caution, so as not to demean the author himself. I think that you always employ such respectful candor in regard to such work , and your observations are most important, considering the wealth of knowledge you have garnered in the research you have done on Indian weapons. I also agree with you on the 'feel' of this weapon, which as you note seems to suggest southern India, and agree that it is at this point mostly the gestalt of the weapon rather than any particular evidence which brings this perception. After the inclination toward that attribution, I think the weapon Jens illustrated offers some support toward our theory, with a Maratha weapon with similar fleuret form quillon terminals. I had been considering the collateral Tipu-esque characteristics and the fact that Hyder and Tipu were both highly influenced by the French militarily as well. Again, all of this is ,as you say, speculation with a degree of plausibility, and not necessarily evidence. I think Radu is extremely observant in his suggestion on possible Gujerat provenance, and think it is important to bring all theories and possibilities to the table for discussion, as we have here. Now to bring in any supporting evidence that may provide support for that suggestion, as well as to add to any for the southern India provenance. Actually all of this may be a formidable task, as trade and Mughal suzerainty consistantly connected regions from the northwest, to Hyderabad and Mysore in central southern India. Persian influence prevailed throughout the Mughal empire, therefore the observation concerning such influence in this sword is also well placed. All the best, Jim

24th February 2005, 08:45 AM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, i agree, that its difficult to criticise authors that you may not completely agree with, but still hold in great esteem for the efforts and work they provided. i suppose if you take any book and just pull out the raw facts, without the opinions and lifted data, then you wouldnt be left with much (a lot of pictures). i respect all authours for having the guts, and the time and inclination to publish. i respect tirris efforts as, whether you agree or disagree with him, its still a useful book. all we can do is note references and influences, as all else is speculation. whether we agree on other opinions or not, i suppose we have to respect them as they have founding as much as your own (as long as it clearly stated to be speculation ). my feeling has always been south and the floral quillions in jens' image shows this influence. the mysore pieces from tipu/hyder ali also show this, and the pieces in the clive collection back this up. however, the floral quillion was also prevelant on mughal miniatures from the north and so this feeling lends towards assumption. when hard data lacks, all you have to go by is your own feeling and experiences, but this doesnt lend to a forum discussion. if some forum members start to discuss their true inner feelings, i feel psychiatrists and agony aunts would need to moderate instead and poor andrew would need a comfortable sofa and some ink blot images to run this forum