clunker saif?

Jim McDougall · 14th February 2007, 03:17 AM

Hi Ariel,
The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword.
Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear.

The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right).

While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade.

Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were.

Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog.

All the best,
Jim

Pukka Bundook · 14th February 2007, 03:57 AM

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

FenrisWolf · 14th February 2007, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

While my own knowledge is limited, keep in mind that when one speaks of 'Berber' and 'Moroccan', one is speaking of a number of different tribes, each with their own identity and preferences as to weapons. One might as well say 'Native American' and expect the Iroquois to be carrying the same weapons as the Apache.

Even within the same tribe there can be a huge variation of weapons. There have been a number of discussions of the flyssa on this board, yet it is a weapon that only appeared briefly in its most recognized form, from the early 1800s through the early 1900s, and that was just the Kayble. How many other variations were carried by the different tribes probably no one will ever know for certain.

katana · 14th February 2007, 11:35 AM

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

Emanuel · 14th February 2007, 05:13 PM

Nicely spotted, David!

The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings.

Emanuel

ariel · 14th February 2007, 10:53 PM

I think we are seeing things that are not there: kind of "Lady Mondegreen" reading.
Algerean Nimchas had only 2 langets ( or are they bent quillons?) , and Zanzibarean swords had in effect 2 langets and a ring. Both would absolutely preclude "reading" the configuration of the handguard as "Allah".
If we follow the same reasoning, European D-guards would stand for " Dominus" or " Deus", and Albanian Khandjars, with their diagonally incised handles would hint at " Virgo Maria"

For those not familiar with Lady Mondegreen, here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen

Jim McDougall · 15th February 2007, 02:55 AM

These are some really interesting observations!!

and I think such constructive ideas are often very important in studying ethnographic weapons. One of my favorite quotes:
"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen,
and thinking what nobody has thought".
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

Actually the very interesting hilt structure of these sa'if/ nimchas has been studied and discussed numerous times over the years. It would seem that many of the features, especially the distinctive quillon, guard arrangement evolved from early Italian swords, and these influences were carried by mostly trade interaction from about the late 15th c. onward. Study on this development was discussed by Anthony North in 1975 ( "A Late 15th c. Italian Sword", in 'The Connoisseur' Dec.1975).

Prior to this, the catalog of the collections of Charles Buttin (Rumilly, France, 1933) shows numerous examples of these sa'if, those with the distinct ring on the crossguard noted as 'Arab' without any reference to 'Zanzibar' attribution. I believe the Zanzibar association developed with its prominence as a trade center, and prevalence of furbishers and outfitters there who produced examples of earlier Arab swords with both trade and native blades there in the 19th c. It does seem that the ring guard has been established as typically found on these sa'if known to have come from Zanzibar, but they do not seem to have been necessarily indiginous prior to examples produced later in the 19th c. there.In the Buttin reference, examples of these sa'if without the ring guard and with the multiple downward quillons were invariably labelled Moroccan. Interestingly, I believe the ring guards are reflections also of early Italian swords, which often had these as the more complex guards developed.

While this material on the development of these hilts presents the results of existing and much earlier researches, I find the suggestions made most interesting and never discount the possibilities of the many ways key influences may have been selected.

All best regards,
Jim

Mark · 16th February 2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

katana · 16th February 2007, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

One side Allah.....the otherside the sacred 'Om'

Perhaps the maker of this hilt wanted to 'double the divine protection' for the owner

Well noted, Mark

BSMStar · 17th February 2007, 05:24 PM

Let me breach another possibility for the “Genoa” stamp.

Jim, you have pointed out that the sword may have been modified in the Caucus and/or the Chechen region… if so, that would place the sword in Mother Russia.

Being in Russia, it opens to possibility of Cyrillic letters. The backward “N” and the letter “л” (the letter lambda, you see it as the letter “A” without the cross bar) are a give-away. This is clue number one.

The theory that it is just simply to mislead and to look like the word Genoa (due to a Genoan connection) would not make sense if we were “Russian” and living in that region. There is a letter “A” in Cyrillic and I would have to assume that the last letter would have been an “A” and not “л” as it was stamped, if the word Genoa was intended. This is clue number two. Therefore, any local Russian would see the word Seiol and not Genoa. In order for the Genoa theory to work, we would have to assume that these swords were stamped for sale to the West. Only western eyes would be “mislead.”

Jim, you have also pointed out a time frame of the later 1800’s… these opens the possibility (building on your other points) that the sword may have survived the October Revolution (of 1918). This is clue number three. In the new Soviet State, no medals or formal award system existed until after the formation of the Federation (“local” medals started production but were still very difficult to obtain in the field). Decorations for valor in the battlefield usually consisted of items confiscated by the Red Army in the name of the people. Guns, swords, daggers, and even clothing were handed out as decorations, usually with hand written citations. It was not too unusual to have the persons name engraved or stamped on the item (depending on the importance of the recipient, availability to do the engraving and so on).

Therefore, I would like to suggest, there maybe other explanations for the “Genoa” stamp.

Best regards,

Wayne

14th February 2007, 11:35 AM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'. Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture. Attached Images

17th February 2007, 05:24 PM	#10
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Three clues... Let me breach another possibility for the “Genoa” stamp. Jim, you have pointed out that the sword may have been modified in the Caucus and/or the Chechen region… if so, that would place the sword in Mother Russia. Being in Russia, it opens to possibility of Cyrillic letters. The backward “N” and the letter “л” (the letter lambda, you see it as the letter “A” without the cross bar) are a give-away. This is clue number one. The theory that it is just simply to mislead and to look like the word Genoa (due to a Genoan connection) would not make sense if we were “Russian” and living in that region. There is a letter “A” in Cyrillic and I would have to assume that the last letter would have been an “A” and not “л” as it was stamped, if the word Genoa was intended. This is clue number two. Therefore, any local Russian would see the word Seiol and not Genoa. In order for the Genoa theory to work, we would have to assume that these swords were stamped for sale to the West. Only western eyes would be “mislead.” Jim, you have also pointed out a time frame of the later 1800’s… these opens the possibility (building on your other points) that the sword may have survived the October Revolution (of 1918). This is clue number three. In the new Soviet State, no medals or formal award system existed until after the formation of the Federation (“local” medals started production but were still very difficult to obtain in the field). Decorations for valor in the battlefield usually consisted of items confiscated by the Red Army in the name of the people. Guns, swords, daggers, and even clothing were handed out as decorations, usually with hand written citations. It was not too unusual to have the persons name engraved or stamped on the item (depending on the importance of the recipient, availability to do the engraving and so on). Therefore, I would like to suggest, there maybe other explanations for the “Genoa” stamp. Best regards, Wayne

14th February 2007, 03:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Hi Ariel, The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword. Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear. The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right). While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade. Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were. Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog. All the best, Jim

14th February 2007, 03:57 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject. I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword. Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?, Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

14th February 2007, 05:13 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nicely spotted, David! The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings. Emanuel

14th February 2007, 10:53 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think we are seeing things that are not there: kind of "Lady Mondegreen" reading. Algerean Nimchas had only 2 langets ( or are they bent quillons?) , and Zanzibarean swords had in effect 2 langets and a ring. Both would absolutely preclude "reading" the configuration of the handguard as "Allah". If we follow the same reasoning, European D-guards would stand for " Dominus" or " Deus", and Albanian Khandjars, with their diagonally incised handles would hint at " Virgo Maria" For those not familiar with Lady Mondegreen, here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen

15th February 2007, 02:55 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	These are some really interesting observations!! and I think such constructive ideas are often very important in studying ethnographic weapons. One of my favorite quotes: "...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen, and thinking what nobody has thought". -Albert von Szent-Gyorgy Actually the very interesting hilt structure of these sa'if/ nimchas has been studied and discussed numerous times over the years. It would seem that many of the features, especially the distinctive quillon, guard arrangement evolved from early Italian swords, and these influences were carried by mostly trade interaction from about the late 15th c. onward. Study on this development was discussed by Anthony North in 1975 ( "A Late 15th c. Italian Sword", in 'The Connoisseur' Dec.1975). Prior to this, the catalog of the collections of Charles Buttin (Rumilly, France, 1933) shows numerous examples of these sa'if, those with the distinct ring on the crossguard noted as 'Arab' without any reference to 'Zanzibar' attribution. I believe the Zanzibar association developed with its prominence as a trade center, and prevalence of furbishers and outfitters there who produced examples of earlier Arab swords with both trade and native blades there in the 19th c. It does seem that the ring guard has been established as typically found on these sa'if known to have come from Zanzibar, but they do not seem to have been necessarily indiginous prior to examples produced later in the 19th c. there.In the Buttin reference, examples of these sa'if without the ring guard and with the multiple downward quillons were invariably labelled Moroccan. Interestingly, I believe the ring guards are reflections also of early Italian swords, which often had these as the more complex guards developed. While this material on the development of these hilts presents the results of existing and much earlier researches, I find the suggestions made most interesting and never discount the possibilities of the many ways key influences may have been selected. All best regards, Jim