Indo-Persian knife for comment

Rick · 5th December 2004, 11:38 PM

A comment on the piece that started this thread :
What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2004, 11:58 PM

Nice acquisition Guy!
I completely agree with Central Asian attribution, and Ariels notes. This is likely Uzbek from regions closer to now Afghanistan. The most applicable term would probably be 'bytshak' which is spelled various ways. See article "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" by Torben Flindt (in "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Elgood, pp.20-29). Rick's note pointing out the pesh kabz in Buttin brings attention to the interesting recurve on the blade which seems atypical in the bytshak. This same recurve is also found on N. Indian khanjars. The interesting chiseling and choil type work on the back of the blade at the terminus of the back edge is also Central Asian characteristic.
The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas.
Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 6th December 2004, 12:05 AM

quote "The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas.
Best regards,
Jim"

AAAAhhh, I see, thats great, I learn more evry time I visit here.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2004, 03:37 AM

Spiral,
Me too!!!

Best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 6th December 2004, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A comment on the piece that started this thread :
What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

Hi All,

I agree with Rick, this is a very strange wootz pattern?? Could this be Arab Damascus?

Jeff

GuyM · 6th December 2004, 09:03 PM

And I learn more than any of you! This is great! Thanks for all the input.

I've attached another picture of the handle, the cleft is quite deep.
The wootz is very pleasent I must say, sort of 'watery'. That's certainly what decided me into buying it. I've attached another picture of the pattern for you enjoyment :-)

Rick · 6th December 2004, 09:39 PM

Guy , I'd love to see a close up of that blade taken in natural light .
It is a most fascinating wootz pattern .

GuyM · 6th December 2004, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Guy , I'd love to see a close up of that blade taken in natural light .
It is a most fascinating wootz pattern .

All the previous picures except for the very last one have been taken in natural light (and it shows, the last one is definitely not as good as the previous ones). But I will take some more pictures as soon as daylight is back :-), concentrating on the wootz pattern. I have to say that taking pictures of such a delicate feature of the metal is quite a challenge!

Rick · 6th December 2004, 11:16 PM

Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all .
Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting .

Photoshop or Irfanview could help manipulate the picture to accentuate the patterning .

ariel · 7th December 2004, 01:09 AM

I have a friend from Uzbekistan and he told me that such a knife is called Pichok.
The similarity with the Turkish name Bichaq is obvious and perfectly understandable: Uzbeks are descended from Turkic-Mongol tribes and share the same ethnic roots with the "traditional" Turks. They have adopted their name in honor of one of the Altyn Orda Khans, Ozbek. By the way, this is a very popular boy's name in modern Turkey.
Tajiks are native Central Asians and are close to Persians. They are still smarting from the devastation inflicted upon them by the Mongols and view Uzbeks as "intruders"; when talking to a Tajik, do NOT call him Uzbek!

GuyM · 7th December 2004, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all .
Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting .

Definitely, I took all my pictures on cloudy days, we've got a lot of them this time of the year around here :-)

Anyway, here's the new lot. It's hard to get a picture of the whole blade with the wootz patterns coming out decently, but for the real fans, I've reverted to plan B: high def scanner. The result is not bad at all, if a little bright (but this can be mended with Photoshop), however, the 1200 dpi scan is a whoping 20Mb, so if someone's got a place for storing this file on a server, I'd be happy to upload it there, this forum's site won't take it.

I hope the new pictures will give you a better idea of this very nice wootz pattern. Personally, I could not find any 'structure' to it, no ladder or anything like that, just a stream of flowing water.

Anyone's got an idea of the age of the piece?

Thanks!

6th December 2004, 09:03 PM	#6
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Bytshak And I learn more than any of you! This is great! Thanks for all the input. I've attached another picture of the handle, the cleft is quite deep. The wootz is very pleasent I must say, sort of 'watery'. That's certainly what decided me into buying it. I've attached another picture of the pattern for you enjoyment :-) Attached Images

6th December 2004, 09:39 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Daylight Guy , I'd love to see a close up of that blade taken in natural light . It is a most fascinating wootz pattern .

5th December 2004, 11:38 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	A comment on the piece that started this thread : What an interesting wootz pattern , I cant get over how 'loose' it is ..

5th December 2004, 11:58 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Nice acquisition Guy! I completely agree with Central Asian attribution, and Ariels notes. This is likely Uzbek from regions closer to now Afghanistan. The most applicable term would probably be 'bytshak' which is spelled various ways. See article "Some Nineteenth Century Arms from Bukhara" by Torben Flindt (in "Islamic Arms & Armour" ed. Robert Elgood, pp.20-29). Rick's note pointing out the pesh kabz in Buttin brings attention to the interesting recurve on the blade which seems atypical in the bytshak. This same recurve is also found on N. Indian khanjars. The interesting chiseling and choil type work on the back of the blade at the terminus of the back edge is also Central Asian characteristic. The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas. Best regards, Jim

6th December 2004, 12:05 AM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	quote "The cleft pommel is well known on many Central Asian edged weapons and is seen on examples of Uzbek and Afghan shashkas. Best regards, Jim" AAAAhhh, I see, thats great, I learn more evry time I visit here. Spiral

6th December 2004, 03:37 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Spiral, Me too!!! Best regards, Jim

6th December 2004, 11:16 PM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Yes , I agree , it's hard to get no light reflection at all . Cloudy bright days are best for this lighting . Photoshop or Irfanview could help manipulate the picture to accentuate the patterning .

7th December 2004, 01:09 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have a friend from Uzbekistan and he told me that such a knife is called Pichok. The similarity with the Turkish name Bichaq is obvious and perfectly understandable: Uzbeks are descended from Turkic-Mongol tribes and share the same ethnic roots with the "traditional" Turks. They have adopted their name in honor of one of the Altyn Orda Khans, Ozbek. By the way, this is a very popular boy's name in modern Turkey. Tajiks are native Central Asians and are close to Persians. They are still smarting from the devastation inflicted upon them by the Mongols and view Uzbeks as "intruders"; when talking to a Tajik, do NOT call him Uzbek!